LGB vs LGBTQI etc

[Whoistheexpert]

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

The problem with these threads is that people always jump to the “anti trans” conclusion. Why isn’t it anti women to eradicate women’s spaces? Why isn’t is seen as homophobic to expect lesbian women to sleep with “male bodied people” - I genuinely don’t understand this. If people would like to sleep with/ have relationships with trans people that’s great for them, why should anyone expect people to have to be attracted to someone just because of something they say they feel they are? There are plenty of pan sexual people for whom the “bits and bobs” involved don’t matter so why is it only lesbians being told they should accept the T🤷‍♀️

For people saying that transwomen offend at the same rate as men what studies are they relying on?

No one needs to rely on any studies to say that this group of males have not been shown to pose less risk to women than other males, nor is there a coherent definition of what constitutes a "transwoman".

We know that males commit most sexual crime and violent crime.

I'm not a lesbian, but I do know a lot of them who feel they have been pushed out of their own space.
There is no tolerance from the TRAs as many of us know, many of the lesbians I have spoken to have received some form of abuse from the "community" because they don't want to date or engage in sexual relations with TW.
What I don't think anyone can deny is that there is a split within the community there are plenty of posters on this thread on both sides who give conflicting points of view, but what I find interesting is that those that fall on the GC side set up their own LGB group so they could advocate for themselves without the T, and the response to that has been shocking from the TRAs..... abuse, threats, violence etc....
Almost as if no one is allowed to have a different opinion from them, if certain LGB people feel LGBT+ groups no longer represent them, why should they be harassed for starting a new group that they feel represents them better?

Same with women.... women only groups, suddenly infiltrated by men or TW, women leave set up a new female only group, new group gets targeted for being non inclusive.

Same old fucking shit.

@Whoistheexpert

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

I thought it was because Stonewall won, they got what they wanted so as a lobby group rather then change themselves, they picked a new thing to lobby for and shoehorned that into their existing demographic to continue trying to justify their existence and the work they were doing.

this may get deleted for this but I strongly believe that if they achieve their aim of getting sex replaced in law by gender, the feelings in a man or womans head, they will start campaigning for pedophiles to be accepted, I think the point is to continue being a lobbyist and they honestly dont care about what they are lobbying for just so long as they can maintain relevance and funding as their core function as a lobby group.

Didn’t read the full thread but as a lesbian no I don’t feel hijacked by the T at all and love the trans people are part of the community. I only feel sad on their behalf tbh that they still face so much discrimination at a scale I don’t feel I do anymore as a lesbian in a western country, I couldn’t imagine growing up trans personally so I am glad if a community I am a part of can provide them with support and relatable folks, especially as many trans people are queer so naturally fit irrelevant of gender identity.

Rely on

1: if they could prove that transwomen didn't offend at the male rate it would be significant enough that it would be published /shouted from the rooftops

2: the Uk publishes data on the prison population which shows transpeople are overly represented as sex offenders ( note that you don't get counted for minor offences and the judiciary system may be biased against transwomen which makes this data ambiguous) ( apparently)

3 there was one peer reviewed paper - I remember it saying that transmen were more violent than women in general and that transwomen could not be distinguish from men

Stating that sex is immutable is not transphobic. It is perhaps sciencedenial phobic.

@flashbac

Transphobia is recycled homophobia now is it? What a lazy assertion with no critical thought behind it. If it's transphobic to believe sex is immutable how can you compare it to homophobia, which is based on moral disgust?

Exactly. It's so lazy to use this as the argument that GC people are just bigots just like homophobes and therefore shouldn't be listened to. It is just simply not the same at all. And obviously it's tedious repeating this ad nauseum because anyone who trots out that tired argument isn't interested in having a rational, fact-based discussion on the topic but here goes nothing: the GC arguments put forward by feminists are not transphobia. GC feminists don't hate or fear of trans people, or wish to 'erase' them or anything of the sort, there is simply a belief (one based on biological fact so knowledge in fact rather than belief) that sex matters, and women's sex-based rights should be protected and upheld, not trampled all over in the name of inclusivity and 'being kind'.

@Linning

Didn’t read the full thread but as a lesbian no I don’t feel hijacked by the T at all and love the trans people are part of the community. I only feel sad on their behalf tbh that they still face so much discrimination at a scale I don’t feel I do anymore as a lesbian in a western country, I couldn’t imagine growing up trans personally so I am glad if a community I am a part of can provide them with support and relatable folks, especially as many trans people are queer so naturally fit irrelevant of gender identity.

Do you never feel like the women’s only nights are no more? Would you happily accept any male bodied person stating they are a woman to be included in an female activities? Not being rude just genuinely asking?

As a lesbian I'm totally happy with the T and I. No matter what a lot of people's opinions are trans people were some of the first to kick off the gay rights movement and I am thankful for that. Growing up I've met many trans people they have always been there, I don't feel hijacked or pressured to enter into relationships with the.

I am more than happy to have trans women at lesbian events. It is absolute a non-issue for me.

Whoops meant to quote @BuffyFanForever but didn’t work. My bad.

Totally get your point of view @Linning. Personally would prefer some lesbian only events but the wider issue is the lack of lesbian events sometimes too!

And just to add, in my life I have experienced pushy, inappropriate behavior from lesbians- being cornered in toilets, not taking no thank you I'm not interested as an answer. Just my personal experience

So happy that you are happy. Thankfully, you don't get to decide what I consent to. "No" is a complete sentence.

@Skinnydogz another one who thinks that lesbians commit sexual violence at the same rate as men. You should be ashamed of being such a hand maiden

I mean lesbian events often have gay men or a bisexual girl’s boyfriend or the straight best friends @BuffyFanForever , so like you say it’s maybe more than in general you don’t see as much exclusively lesbian parties and events but honestly I mind the straight girls coming for support at a lesbian party a bit more than I would ever trans women, and I also don’t think I would personally be comfortable attending lesbian parties that refused entry to trans women, and many of my lesbian friends wouldn’t either.

I prefer queer spaces to be inclusive personally rather than exclusive.

"There's a thread on feminism boards 'It will never happen', detailing crimes et by transwomen.
What if I were to start one about gay women?"

I haven't seen anyone on any thread deny that women sometimes harm other women. So there's no need to evidence it happens, as no one is arguing otherwise.

I have seen lots of posters say that no one would ever take advantage of self ID to harm others, or for any other ill intentioned reason. Which is why a thread providing evidence to the contrary exists.

*"There's a thread on feminism boards 'It will never happen', detailing crimes et by transwomen.
What if I were to start one about gay women?"

I haven't seen anyone on any thread deny that women sometimes harm other women. So there's no need to evidence it happens, as no one is arguing otherwise.*

What I am seeing increasingly on twitter and and have seen on this thread is TRAs suggesting that women, specifically lesbians, frequently commit sexual assault. The suggestion being that there is no difference in risk factor between lesbians and transwomen.

This is a homophobic lie and needs to be called out.

[quote bellinisurge]@Skinnydogz another one who thinks that lesbians commit sexual violence at the same rate as men. You should be ashamed of being such a hand maiden [/quote]
She didn’t say «at the same rate as men» she just shared her personally experience as a lesbian.

I too as a lesbian have experienced pushy, inappropriate, and sexual violence/assault from other women. As did I from straight men. None so far from transwomen.

Doesn’t mean that lesbians/women attack at the same rate, or even at a comparable rate, plenty of evidence that men are the main culprit when it comes to sexual assault and inappropriate sexual behavior, by a massive margin. BUT as a lesbian, it’s important to note that for some of us, the threat and violence within our «safe spaces» doesn’t actually come from transwomen but from fellow lesbian/women. For me (and a fair amount of my friends) that’s very much the case and that’s why, while I can understand that a lesbian who was at the receiving end of violence or cohersion from transwomen would feel threatened by them but for some of us, the story that transwomen are a bigger threat than fellow lesbians/queer women simply isn’t our reality and in fact I would be surprised if the lesbians who experienced any type of pushy behavior from transwomen (which is inexcusable!) didn’t also experience it from fellow queer women.

It of course doesn’t alter the statistics regarding men and their threat levels at all, but there is a difference between statistics and our actually first hand experience as lesbians. And one can acknowledge and agree with statistics while also acknowledging that the statistics don’t apply to our own personal experience.

For anyone interested in Stonewall and their 2015 turnaround on adding the T and subsequent denial of same-sex attraction I recommend the satirical "The end of the world is flat" by Simon Edge

@Scout2016

"There's a thread on feminism boards 'It will never happen', detailing crimes et by transwomen. What if I were to start one about gay women?"

I haven't seen anyone on any thread deny that women sometimes harm other women. So there's no need to evidence it happens, as no one is arguing otherwise.

I have seen lots of posters say that no one would ever take advantage of self ID to harm others, or for any other ill intentioned reason. Which is why a thread providing evidence to the contrary exists.

I don't think that's what thread does.

It doesn't give evidence that men take advantage of self ID and deliberately and fraudulently claim to be women IN ORDER TO gain access to and abuse women.

It simply shows that some transwomen commit crimes.

As do some lesbians.

As do some gay men.

As do some women.

As do some name any other demographic here

I mean you've have to be pretty stupid / thinking very strangely as a man to be considering self IDing as a woman in order to abuse women at the moment wouldn't you? That's seems to be the first thought that is entering many people's heads about transwomen anyway, it's hardly a good disguise.

The problem is that we are told "it never happens "

Not " it happens just like with any other group of people "

What we do see is that it does appear that transwomen behave like men

Lesbian here.... you are 100% right. Two totally different things lumped together. I don't see sexuality as an identity issue any more than having blue eyes or curly hair.

It simply shows that some transwomen commit crimes.

As do some lesbians.

As do some gay men.

As do some women.

However, it doesn't change the fact that male people are responsible for most violent crime.