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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

LGB vs LGBTQI etc

518 replies

Whoistheexpert · 22/03/2022 20:04

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Mysterian · 23/03/2022 09:18

@Allandnothing

As always the answer and debates lies somewhere in the middle - not in the extremes of some trans activists or the extremes of some feminist activists. There’s room for everyone, even if the conversations are difficult As times.
That's pretty much every topic ever. The idea that "I must get 100% my way or you're the most evil person since Rudolph Hitler" does not gain sympathy from most people.
bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 09:23

"The middle " isn't allowed by transactivists. And, by the way, normalising the nonsense of TWAW is not "the middle ground ". It's lies. Not always for evil purposes but lies all the same. No, thank you.

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 09:26

The middle ground is conceding that someone wants to use she/her pronouns. I have been prepared to do this in the past but I'm reconsidering it.

Beancounter1 · 23/03/2022 09:29

@suggestionsplease1

GC tactics, arguments, rationales, stats etc do seem to read from the same playbook as the far right approach to gay people.

There's a thread on feminism boards 'It will never happen', detailing crimes et by transwomen.

What if I were to start one about gay women? I could maybe start it off with this:

news.sky.com/story/gareeca-gordon-woman-who-murdered-friend-after-sexual-advances-rebuffed-jailed-for-life-12296606,

or perhaps this:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6855299/Lesbian-killer-prostitute-insists-disappearance-brother.html

Of course there are dozens more similar. Would you consider me or that action homophobic for starting that thread and driving forward the case that lesbians are more dangerous than straight women?

If you think that is homophobic why isn't the FWR thread transphobic?

If you think the FWR thread is fine then logically you must have no real issue with others creating threads about lesbians in this way, it's just a bit hypocritical otherwise, isn't it?

And of course they appeal to stats in the same way - they take information like this: Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual, "a proportion that is about 8 to 10 times greater than the 3.4 percent of lesbian or bisexual women in the U.S. population."

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/overwhelming-number-lesbians-bisexual-women-incarcerated-n728666

To demonstrate that lesbians are more inherently more dangerous and aggressive, should not be housed with straight women etc.

The playbook for both is the same, and the scaremongering tactics harm lesbians when they are directed against us, and harm transwomen when they are directed against them.

I can see that you are trying hard to think clearly and logically. I will assume you are posting in good faith, so let me point out the flaw in your line of reasoning.

It may or may not be true that lesbian women are more dangerous than straight women, statistically - I really don't know.
But it is irrelevant, because the number of women who attack women is tiny, really tiny, compared to the number of men who attack women.

If your concern is genuinely about protecting women, you would not focus on a theoretical threat from lesbians - you would focus on the very real and obvious threat from men.

And as transwomen have the same offending-profile as men, i.e. they are just as likely (or not-likely) to attack women as any other male bodied people, then transwomen have to be considered along with other men in any attempt to safeguard women.

(Actually, males who claim to be transwomen are MORE dangerous to women, statistically as a group, that the general population of men, because predators will deliberately use the 'trans' cover to gain access to women.)

Yes it would be homophobic to start a thread like you describe.
No it is not transphobic to have a thread detailing the crimes of self-declared "transwomen" - because it is not about whether transwomen commit crimes or fear and hatred of transwomen, it is about male-bodied people who commit crimes and the need to protect females.

But your focus is not about protecting women, your focus is about protecting the "right" of transwomen (male bodied people) to access female-only spaces.
Why is this your focus? Are you not bothered about protecting women?

And incidentally, the fact that women's protection activists may end up using the same tactics and methods as far-right transphobes, doesn't mean anything other than such tactics are commonly in use by any and all activist groups. I expect climate activists and anti-abortion campaigners may use similar methods, for example.
For that matter I expect Russian spies use similar methods to American spies. So what?

AhhhHereItGoes · 23/03/2022 09:31

Can someone who knows a lot about this topic tell me why a high majority of trans women keep their penis?

Genuinely if they feel they are born in the wrong body, why would they keep the offending genitalia that disgusts them?

It's a genuine question.

doublemonkey · 23/03/2022 09:33

@Allandnothing

‘ And don’t the LGB community feel they’ve been hijacked now by the intense / constant focus on trans politics?

Aibu to ask this?’

Trans people have always been part of our community, way back in the days when gay bars still had blackened windows, and before Pride became trendy for straight people.
No, we don’t feel hijacked. I don’t
Agreed with some of the ideals of trans activists
-Lia Thomas should not be swimming in the womens competition for example- but for the most part we all get along okay.

If you've been around on the scene as long as your post suggests you'll know that the trans people who were around then were transvestites, not transgender people. You'll also remember that there were gay clubs and pubs all over the place and women only events were very commonplace.

The amount of people identifying as transgender, particularly young girls is alarming. 20 years ago these girls would have been boring old dykes, but being a lesbian has never been cool, even less so now, and the pressure on them to identify as trans is immense.

This is not equality and freedom. This is conversion abuse.

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 09:35

I was also shocked @AhhhHereItGoes when I discovered that transwomen keep their penis. That changed everything for me.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 23/03/2022 09:37

I just don't understand how any women, gay, straight or bi, would be happy for laws and policies to be changed that quite literally redefine our sex class just to appease the feelings of a group of men.

Politicians pretending that 'woman' is now some random, unexplainable concept.

No one is questioning what a MAN is. Ever.
Transmen are an irrelevance to men, because they are female.

It isn't about individual transwomen. It's about pretending that the instant a man claims to be a woman, him and his penis become entirely benign and that the safeguarding rules that apply to every other man are unnecessary for them.

To be called transphobic when we dare question the motives of men who claim to be women, despite the fact cross dressing is the number one male sexual paraphilia.

Zillamop · 23/03/2022 09:42

Gay, lesbian and bi people are not undermining women's rights. The current transactivists are.

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 09:46

PIE used to argue they were part of the struggle for gay rights . Some politicians even indulged it. The overwhelming majority of gay rights activists jumped as far away from that criminal shit as possible.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 23/03/2022 09:54

Can someone who knows a lot about this topic tell me why a high majority of trans women keep their penis?

Because 'trans' is now just means anything anyone says it is.
They are no longer transexuals.
They don't need to have dysphoria.

They can still dress and present as men but say they are a woman, coz magic feelings, (yet the teenage girls must have their perfectly healthy breasts removed and take hormones that fuck up their insides)

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 23/03/2022 09:58

I wonder if the people that advocate to include transwomen in ALL women's spaces ever feel guilty about what sometimes happens due to this? And do you realise what you are actually supporting?

Do you feel bad that some women have been raped and sexually assaulted due to things that you are fighting for? Doesn't it ever make you think, hmm maybe I've made a mistake?

Would you ever be able to face those women and say, yeah sorry about that but your abuser was a woman so should have been there anyway? You wouldn't even feel the slightest bit bad about that?

How many people realise that transwomen don't have to take hormones, get surgery, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, change appearance, nothing at all?

Any man at all can literally wake up one morning and say they are a woman, change nothing about themselves, but are now welcome in any and all single-sex places?

For those that say that won't happen, why wouldn't it?
Most women have had some form of sexual harassment from males, just think about that flasher that targeted you when you were 15, guess what, he can now declare womanhood and follow you into the changing room.
Have you ever thought through to the actual endpoint of what you are defending?

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 10:01

God there are some batshit posts on here.

Puberty can begin at age 9 in boys though, would you prefer them to go in the gents alone?

Our local tennis club has signs up saying that boys over the age of 5 should use the men's facilities.

My son has used the sex appropriate facilities from a young age.

Are you suggesting that boys are unsafe in men's toilets?

You do realise that transwomen have the same male pattern violence rates as any other men and that some men who claim to be trans are already using this identity to abuse girls in women's toilets?

Why if you think men are sexual predators do you want all single sex facilities to become unisex?

MadameDragon · 23/03/2022 10:04

@sessell you’re right, it’s straight cis people whose opinions are completely irrelevant here.

TheKeatingFive · 23/03/2022 10:06

They can still dress and present as men but say they are a woman, coz magic feelings

I honestly do not understand why this applies to male/female, but nothing else.

Imagine the outrage if some 'identified' as disabled or another race to compete in sport or to get on a shortlist.

So why is it okay to 'identify' as a female to do those things?

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 10:11

"straight cis people " I'm straight. I'm not cis. I don't use nonsense descriptions that were started by a paedophile.

Nicholethejewellery · 23/03/2022 10:14

@flashbac

Transphobia is recycled homophobia now is it? What a lazy assertion with no critical thought behind it. If it's transphobic to believe sex is immutable how can you compare it to homophobia, which is based on moral disgust?
They're ultimately the same thing.

Transphobia is based on the BELIEF that people can't change gender. There's no logical reason to believe that it's not possible, just that for most of history the majority have believed it's not possible. It's not a "fact" it's an opinion.

Homophobia is based on the BELIEF that it's "wrong" for people to be in a same sex relationship. There's no logical reason why, just that for most of history the majority have believed it's wrong for whatever reason - usually religious leaders telling them it's wrong, or for the fact that same sex couples can't procreate naturally.

Both phobias are based on a person believing that something else is not possible or correct. Why on earth would it be acceptable to say "sex is immutable" but not to say "homosexuality is wrong"? Both are opinions, not facts. (People long argued homosexuality being wrong was a FACT in the same way they now argue sex can't be changed.)

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 10:15

The suggestion that lesbians are as violent as men used as an excuse for making all spaces unisex is about the most homophobic thing I've ever read on mumsnet.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 23/03/2022 10:15

Imagine the outrage if some 'identified' as disabled

Loads of people now 'identify' as disabled
Self diagnosis is rife. Just look at all the kids on til tok pretending to have tourettes and multiple personality disorders.
They all try to outdo each other with their pretend oppression.

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 10:17

Transphobia is based on the BELIEF that people can't change gender.

I don't give two hoots about gender I just KNOW that it is impossible to change sex.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 23/03/2022 10:17

Nicholethejewellery

Why on earth would it be acceptable to say "sex is immutable" but not to say "homosexuality is wrong"? Both are opinions, not facts. (People long argued homosexuality being wrong was a FACT in the same way they now argue sex can't be changed.)

Are you seriously saying that you believe that people can change sex? Not gender, because as far as I can see, gender = personality.
Can you pinpoint exactly when you started to believe that?

TheKeatingFive · 23/03/2022 10:19

Transphobia is based on the BELIEF that people can't change gender. There's no logical reason to believe that it's not possible

But there is no definition of gender that does not ultimately rely on social stereotypes. So the idea that an innate sense of gender exists in the first place is absolutely not backed up by anything.

Much more importantly, we're being asked to go along with the idea that this very wooly concept of gender trumps sex in issues like women's safe spaces, women's sports. We're being asked to ignore the reality of obviously male bodies. We're being called transphobic for pointing out that changing sex is an impossibility.

That isn't even remotely comparable to gay rights and you absolutely know this, if you have two brain cells to rub together.

TheKeatingFive · 23/03/2022 10:20

Loads of people now 'identify' as disabled
Self diagnosis is rife. Just look at all the kids on til tok pretending to have tourettes and multiple personality disorders.

Do they get to compete in the paralympics?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2022 10:23

Transphobia is based on the BELIEF that people can't change gender. There's no logical reason to believe that it's not possible, just that for most of history the majority have believed it's not possible. It's not a "fact" it's an opinion.

The belief we have is that "gender" (gender identity) is not innate. Your ideology believes that the things trans people claim are evidence of this. But there are other explanations. You have a positive belief in innate gender identity, many people do not.

The existence and importance of biological sex is a FACT.

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 10:24

Sex can't be changed. Jesus, such numpties on here. Make like fe as comfortable as possible for people who are uncomfortable in their sexed bodies but not at the expense of safety and fairness for women. It's not hard.

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