LGB vs LGBTQI etc

[Whoistheexpert]

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

@Silvergreen

Lots of us (lesbians especially) don't like it and think the T is a cuckoo and a total embarrassment.

I’m inclined to agree. I am quite old and remember when T used to mainly be male transsexuals, who also suffered homophobia. There was a solidarity between us. It’s sad that a lot of cross dressing straight men have muscled in on the movement.

GC tactics, arguments, rationales, stats etc do seem to read from the same playbook as the far right approach to gay people.

There's a thread on feminism boards 'It will never happen', detailing crimes et by transwomen.

What if I were to start one about gay women? I could maybe start it off with this:

news.sky.com/story/gareeca-gordon-woman-who-murdered-friend-after-sexual-advances-rebuffed-jailed-for-life-12296606,

or perhaps this:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6855299/Lesbian-killer-prostitute-insists-disappearance-brother.html

Of course there are dozens more similar. Would you consider me or that action homophobic for starting that thread and driving forward the case that lesbians are more dangerous than straight women?

If you think that is homophobic why isn't the FWR thread transphobic?

If you think the FWR thread is fine then logically you must have no real issue with others creating threads about lesbians in this way, it's just a bit hypocritical otherwise, isn't it?

And of course they appeal to stats in the same way - they take information like this: Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual, "a proportion that is about 8 to 10 times greater than the 3.4 percent of lesbian or bisexual women in the U.S. population."

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/overwhelming-number-lesbians-bisexual-women-incarcerated-n728666

To demonstrate that lesbians are more inherently more dangerous and aggressive, should not be housed with straight women etc.

The playbook for both is the same, and the scaremongering tactics harm lesbians when they are directed against us, and harm transwomen when they are directed against them.

Ah yes the "far right " argument. You are on the far right if you don't want to be raped while on a single sex ward and then told you are a liar because there are only women on that ward - TWAW. This actually happened so don't call it scare mongering and moral panic.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

Why not lesbians from women's spaces? The women who assaulted me felt threatened and uncomfortable around me. I had asked one of them out was the crime. Who KNOWS what I could have done next. Lesbians have definitely assaulted people before. There are lesbians in prison right now because they have been predatory.

This again?

98% of sexual crime is carried out by males. That is a huge, huge percentage. Yes, there is a very small number of women who are dangerous, but as a class, males are much much higher risk than females. Which is why we have certain sex segregsted provision, it's based on that risk assessment. Transwomen are in that high risk class. At what point do they come out of it?

Your own rationale would dictate that trans women are not in a high risk category, given that there are a “very small number” of trans women who are dangerous.

LGB campaigners in the 80s and 90s didn't want to change the definition of women to include men. Or make women ignore the evidence of their own eyes when in a vulnerable situation. More bullshit. This is nothing like the important civil rights campaign for LGB rights.

@Simonjt

No, we don't feel 'hijacked', thanks for asking - most LGB people recognise that trans acceptance and equality is to our benefit and that modern transphobia is basically recycled homophobia, exactly the same arguments now being made against trans people that were made against gay people a few years ago. Most LGB people are absolutely happy to include the T.

This. I’m also beyond sick of the new trend of straight people silencing us to achieve their own transphobic agenda.

This sums up my feelings 100%

In fact my biggest issue with mumsnet is the fact every conversation gets dominated by some sort of trans political comment, and lots of people telling me that they are speaking for/protecting the lesbians.

It certainly doesn't speak for my queer circle, who can all remember the same concerns, comments and narrative being used against us

It’s only a small number of men that are dangerous but as we can’t tell which ones are and which ones aren’t just by looking, we keep men out of single sex spaces so we can minimise the risk

Again, please tell me how I know that someone with a penis is not a threat to me. Is it because they are wearing a priest's outfit. Or because they are a sports coach. Or a police officer. Or a social worker. Do those jobs mean they are inherently safe to be around. Or should there be safeguarding?

I can also bet lots on that a lot of the debate on this thread not coming from the queer community but from straight women "protecting" us.

Stop using the Q word. It is a vile abusive term

@bellinisurge says who?

It's certainly the name my local groups have claimed. It's certainly a name that fits for me.

It's really common in the community

Are the lesbians who are advocating for the T aware that Stonewall have changed the definition of homosexual and lesbian from 'same sex attracted' to 'same gender attracted'? and are suggesting that not including trans people in your dating pool is akin to being a Nazi?

For context, almost 80% of transwomen still retain their male genitalia, so as a lesbian I'm supposed to be ok with that?

I'm not ok with that... 👀

Says anyone who experienced or witnessed people getting the shit kicked out of them and being called the Q word as it was done.

Your own rationale would dictate that trans women are not in a high risk category, given that there are a “very small number” of trans women who are dangerous.

Transwomen are male, and therefore in the high risk class. Also, how are women supposed to know which are the genuine transwomen, which are the dangerous transwomen and which are the males who have taken advantage of a loophole in the law to gain easier access to women's spaces?

Still waiting for one of the handmaidens stuff on here to tell me how I know that an unknown person with a penis is safe to be around when I'm in a vulnerable situation

@Allaboutthatvase

I can also bet lots on that a lot of the debate on this thread not coming from the queer community but from straight women "protecting" us.

And I can bet that a lot of the debate on this thread is coming from people who aren't lesbian and bisexual women.

@doublemonkey

Are the lesbians who are advocating for the T aware that Stonewall have changed the definition of homosexual and lesbian from 'same sex attracted' to 'same gender attracted'? and are suggesting that not including trans people in your dating pool is akin to being a Nazi?

For context, almost 80% of transwomen still retain their male genitalia, so as a lesbian I'm supposed to be ok with that?

I'm not ok with that... 👀

It's well over 90%

@bellinisurge are you part of the community?

It's really common now days, there's lots of language change (for example when I was young it was uncommon to hear gay woman rather than lesbian but now its fairly common to hear gay woman)

It's been mostly reclaimed by the community. I appreciate it might not be the term you use, but its the term I do, as do the specific groups I was referring to . For someone that's against language policing I'd think you'd get that

@Allaboutthatvase

I can also bet lots on that a lot of the debate on this thread not coming from the queer community but from straight women "protecting" us.

I wonder how old you are. Amongst friends who were on the scene in the 90s or earlier, we can feel that something is not right with the movement.

Back in the day we were told by homophobes that consenting adults of the same sex having relationships or sex was wrong and shameful. And that we couldn’t marry or adopt children.

None of what we fought for impacted on the safety of others. In fact it was an incredibly safety conscious movement, where we navigated the threat of HIV together.

Homophobes tried to say that gay men were more likely to be pedophiles and sexual predators than straight men, which is not the case. We fought that narrative successfully because it is clearly false and rooted in prejudice.

Trans women are more likely to be sexual predators than biological females. This is not transphobia, it is factual because trans women are biologically men and have a similar risk profile to other men. It isn’t bigoted to point this out or to safeguard women and girls as a direct result.

"It's been mostly reclaimed by the community. I appreciate it might not be the term you use, but its the term I do, as do the specific groups I was referring to . For someone that's against language policing I'd think you'd get that"

Just because some people (particularly kids) use it doesn't mean it's been reclaimed. Plenty of people who are LGB who won't use it because it's vile. Like the N word.

@Allaboutthatvase

I can also bet lots on that a lot of the debate on this thread not coming from the queer community but from straight women "protecting" us.

I'm not just in favour of protecting your group (I assume you mean lesbians?) I am in favour of protecting all women from male bodied people.

A small number of male bodied people are violent predators, so there should be safeguarding, including female-only spaces.

Just as a very small number of people are a danger to children, so there is extensive safeguarding around working with and having access to children.

Just to spell in out again for the hard-of-thinking, I am NOT equating transwomen to paedophiles. I am equating child-protection measures to woman-protection measures. Because some male-bodied people are predatory and dangerous to women (all women, whether lesbian, bi or straight.) Such men can and will pretend to be transwomen if it helps them gain access to women.

"Just to spell in out again for the hard-of-thinking, I am NOT equating transwomen to paedophiles. I am equating child-protection measures to woman-protection measures. Because some male-bodied people are predatory and dangerous to women (all women, whether lesbian, bi or straight.) Such men can and will pretend to be transwomen if it helps them gain access to women."

This ⬆️. A million times

‘ And don’t the LGB community feel they’ve been hijacked now by the intense / constant focus on trans politics?

Aibu to ask this?’

Trans people have always been part of our community, way back in the days when gay bars still had blackened windows, and before Pride became trendy for straight people.
No, we don’t feel hijacked. I don’t
Agreed with some of the ideals of trans activists
-Lia Thomas should not be swimming in the womens competition for example- but for the most part we all get along okay.

As always the answer and debates lies somewhere in the middle - not in the extremes of some trans activists or the extremes of some feminist activists.
There’s room for everyone, even if the conversations are difficult
As times.

"Agreed with some of the ideals of trans activists"
If you don't agree with all of them, you may find yourself on the receiving end of the "TERF" accusation. Look at what happened to Adele for daring to say she missed the "Best female artist " award. She had to make sure she spent some time declaring her fealty . Aren't you in the least bit concerned about that