DF giving £200k to DB

[PercyGoat]

DH & I own our house (mortgaged). We both earn good money and we work hard for it. We lack for nothing and we do treat ourselves.

My older DB lives in a house share. He hates the idea of owing money to anyone. He has a big deposit already but not enough money to buy something outright.

DF called me a few days ago. He is about to retire and his pension is not enough to cover his bills. He owns some assets (~£500k plus) in addition to main house but he does not have enough cash from pension each month. He said he also has cash savings but reluctant to spend. He did not ask but I said - don't worry i can transfer you £500 each month to help out.

Today, DM called me and said she had an argument with DF. DF is using his cash and selling some assets to buy DB £200k to buy a flat outright.

AIBU to be angry?

There is unfortunately not much you can do here.

DFs assets, so DM cannot block.

He can do what he wants. I do however think you need to make clear to him that you will not be contributing financially to rheir care in the future.

May sound harsh, but its better to have this out in the open nice and early.

Here’s news for you. People with that sort of money are well aware of the tax implications and the need to stay alive for seven years after they’ve handed the money over.

Well, most of them perhaps. My sibling and me had to explain IHT to him. It was very awkward. Why he didn't ask for proper IHT planning from his solicitor I have no idea.

If you thought it was sensible to give £500 a month to a man with assets not far short of a million you might as well give it to your much poorer brother and cut out the middle man.

*my DF

If they liquidate assets, there may be Capital Gains Tax to pay.

£500,000 might yield an income of about £12,000 pa. And, unlike buying an annuity (pension), the capital is still there to be used. It can be drawn down as needed, albeit at the cost of reducing annual income yield

It does rather sound like your DF milks or ignores the women and thinks assets belong with the men.

Which I wouldn't be enabling.

I too find it incredibly strange that you'd offer £500/month instead of suggest he uses his savings, which are there precisely for times like this.

You have no right to be annoyed really, you offered money where it wasn't needed.

But your dad was being a CF for thinking it was ok to take from you and give to your brother. Especially when 1) he can afford to give without your cash 2) your brother doesn't even really need it 3) he decides to spend that kinda cash without consulting his wife.

Gosh, so many issues here!

Obviously purchasing a property for one child and not giving financial support to another is problematic and likely to cause resentment between the siblings and between parent and children. This could have ripples for years to come and impact on family dynamics.

OP helping out her father when he has significant assets is ludicrous. He may not have much in terms of pension (is this state pension or other? How old is he?) but his savings/investments and owning property are significant.

It does not take a long time to liquidate assets (What are these?)

When people retire they generally enter a period of 'decumulation' of capital and do not expect to continue to grow their assets. This is what they have saved for. Spending capital is not problematic: it is to be expected in most cases.

There could well be issues in future regarding deprivation of assets if the father needed funded care at any stage. There is no time limit on this and Social Care would check.

Similarly there could potentially be problems with inheritance tax if he dies within seven years. It is not wise to give away large amounts of cash. The annual allowance for gifting cash is £3000.

Of course, the property could be purchased in the parent's name, but that would bring another set of issues. Would the father become a landlord and charge rent? And what about capital gains tax on sale of the property?

It would certainly be prudent to suggest seeking financial advice before purchasing the property.

I’d be furious if my brother got 200k for nothing and I got nothing, especially after offering assistance and at the very least would be wondering how it affects any inheritance you would receive and how it would be split between you and your brother and the financial implications re tax

I was on a tight budget with my EX...I mean tight...He gave me $20 dollars in 28 years ( length of my marriage)

I worked 2 jobs while he squirrled " His money away."

When I got the divorce I discovered later ( I was so stupid) that he had $500,00 saved in stocks and bonds. He was a hoarder of $. And so greedy.

Ugh... I left with $1,000 a year ( after fighting with his lawyer) who was also his lawyer... for each year I lived with him ...28 years.

I felt so sorry for him because you know he was broke. Lesson learned. What a loser.

Yes...I would be very pissed if I were in your shoes.
I left our home..everything because I was sucker enough to believe he was broke............errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

I'm gobsmacked that you offered to pay £500 pm to someone with a pension, a house, savings and investments in excess of half a million quid. Are you insane? Ask for your £500 back now that you know your father is just going to hand over £200k to your DB and never, ever just hand over cash like that again. If you can spare £500 pm then put it towards your own mortgage, not towards your father's luxury retirement plans.

This has happened to me twice, same brother, smaller amounts. First time I was living away from home and earning well in a new job, my DM didn't give my brother any pocket money, said she couldn't afford it. I offered to give my brother x amount - not small - pocket money every month as he was mid-teens and already showing signs of not knowing how to budget and manage money. A few weeks later out of the blue, DM started giving him a similar amount of pocket money for the same reasons, but neither of us knew the other was giving him money too. He kept quiet and took double for months until we found out

Second time, I'd moved back home, brother was still there. DM was having a bit of work done on the house and run into some cashflow issues - work hadn't paid her/payroll error - and I offered to put a lump sum in her account so she didn't run into trouble with bank charges, and pay me back when cashflow was sorted.

Once she got the money she orchestrated a huge row, kicked me out of the house for six days, and when I finally came back, there is brother, with a brand new xbox, alexa... he squirmed when I asked him where he got the money. It was weeks later when DM asked me for some help downloading some bank statements that I happened to see she had basically immediately transferred MY money to brother, then kicked me out of the house.

Some people are just entitled and grabby, and some kids are more favoured than others. I'm glad you're pulling the 500 a month, and feel for you as your DF seems to have the same attitude that one DC is ok to take from, and one is ok to give to, but they never overlap.

Is your father then going to leave your 'd'b 200k less in his will or that's really unfair on you. Although l appreciate we can leave our money to whoever we wish.

I'm unsure what you're annoyed about really because you clearly don't need the money. I think the PP said it best; your parents worry about your brother but you have got life sorted. It's not that they don't care about you.

Your DF is worth half a million but you’re subbing him £500 a month?

You both need an accountant (separate ones!) and some financial advice. Never mind your brother. This is bonkers.

I'm reading the comments and I understand how stupid I look!

DF and DM have state and private pensions. They are not poor. All assets are held in DF's name even though they are joint marital assets acquired through funds generated from a family business.

I feel a little manipulated by DF. I own a successful business and I may have been a little too open about my own finances. The conversation was very much along the lines of DF not knowing how to make ends meet. I suggested that he liquidated his assets etc. The £500/month was a temporary fix while he sorted his finances.

DF worries about DB. DB is 40 and lives in a house share. He will not take on any commitment. I cannot speak with DB about this situation. When it comes to money, he pretends not to understand. He will gladly take the money!

I'm not really angry about not being offered £200k. I'm angry that DF cannot afford this gift. I'm also angry that he is gladly accepting my offer and that he is set on helping someone else.

I also feel that when my parents pass, we should have the same inheritance DB and I. He should not get more money because he makes bad life decisions.

I personally am ok with my dad giving my brother more of his money than I get. I was able to buy a property and it made money. My brother did not so has no property. I just let my dad know to raise the 1500 he is currently giving my brother who is not working but kind of 'looking after' my dad and the house. I have also suggested he puts the house in my brother's name( he has been living there 5 years and it is his home so I worry what will happen when the sad day comes that my dad dies. The way I see it is my brother needs more of my dad's assets than I do and he deserves more because he is using his time looking after my dad and not generating a good income like I am.
Just stop the $500 a month. If your lifestyle is good surely you want your brother to have some sort of security, which a property will bring him. I don't think parents need to split assets equally but depending on what their children need. Your brother needs help with a flat and you don't.

You offered £500pm to supplement your parents' monthly income while they liquidated assets.

And it doesn't look as if he lied or tricked you, or as if anything about that has changed. He still has a monthly shortfall while he liquidates his assets.

What has changed of course is that he wants to give your db £200k of those liquidated assets. Will he update his will so that you receive a similar amount on his death? So db is getting his inheritance, or a sizeable chunk of his inheritance, early.

You just need to speak to your dad. He didn't amass generous assets by being stupid about money, and I doubt he is offering this to db without a similar plan for you.

@contrelamontre

You and your husband own a house, earn well and treat yourselves. Your older sibling is in a house share (and therefore I assume single) and your dad is wondering what he did wrong with your DB and why he hasn't been able to to sort himself out and is trying to make good. It's not 'fair'. It's not that your parents love you less. It's that they worry about him more. Your DF feels you don't need it as much as your DB. I would try to come to terms with that but also let it guide what you do in terms of time and financial support that puts any sort of strain on you and your DH.

But the KEY thing here is that your DM is not comfortable with this for their sake and not your brother's. That is actually what is a big issue here and you need to help your DM stand up for herself and what's right for her and her husband.

The DB has a big deposit but instead of doing what just about everyone else in his position would do and get a mortgage he's decided that he will make puppy dog eyes at his parents about 'hating debt' and luckily for him, they're just going to give him a flat.

OP YANBU. BIL and SIL waste their money on stupid shit, smoke and go to the pub at least twice a week so get into debt and struggle to afford boring things like electricity bills, and they keep saying they're not as lucky as us who can afford to go on holiday.

We earn about the same with mortgage etc being about the same but MIL falls for it and gives them money. We don't need any of course because we're doing OK.

Not that I want any money from her, it's just irritating that inability or unwillingness to budget and make sensible financial choices is enabled like this.

@Bookescapeartist

I personally am ok with my dad giving my brother more of his money than I get. I was able to buy a property and it made money. My brother did not so has no property. I just let my dad know to raise the 1500 he is currently giving my brother who is not working but kind of 'looking after' my dad and the house. I have also suggested he puts the house in my brother's name( he has been living there 5 years and it is his home so I worry what will happen when the sad day comes that my dad dies. The way I see it is my brother needs more of my dad's assets than I do and he deserves more because he is using his time looking after my dad and not generating a good income like I am. Just stop the $500 a month. If your lifestyle is good surely you want your brother to have some sort of security, which a property will bring him. I don't think parents need to split assets equally but depending on what their children need. Your brother needs help with a flat and you don't.

Isn’t that an entirely different situation from OP’s? Your brother is taking on caring duties for your parents. Freeing you from the responsibility.

OP’s was guilted into financially supporting her father whilst father handed over a large sum of money to his son without telling OP he was going to do that.

And you may be fine with unequal financial support from your parents. OP isn’t.

Doesn’t mean OP is wrong.

Your DF has cash, it doesn't get more liquid than that! And what is his plan once he gifts your db 200k, he still won't be able to afford his bills. Or will he liquidate more to live off as well. I honestly wouldn't have an issue with my parents helping out my siblings that haven't gotten on the housing ladder as it is so hard to do now. However if that were to happen my parents would reflect that in their will. Ie son got 200k in 2022, daughter gets 200k and balance split 50/50 when they pass.

So many will say its his money to do what he likes and that is 100% true, however that doesn't make it fair. Sorry OP.

Everyone saying it’s OP’s father’s choice: it’s not as he’s married to OP’s mother, who disagrees! Assets being in his name doesn’t necessarily mean they’re his alone as they’re married.

You were U to offer your father money when he and your DM are wealthy.

I would tell both your father and brother how unfair on your mother and you this idea would be.

‘only 10% of people ever need to pay for care’. Don’t think that figure is right, think it’s more like 1 in 4, also some people need care but receive financially free care from a relative - that obviously has high costs too, in different ways.

£200k goes well beyond ‘helping out’, and is way more than necessary to get on the housing ladder, when OP’s brother has a deposit saved. it’s favouritism.

Does your father have dementia?

This thread demonstrates that even when very well off, people still squabble and feel resentful over money. OP, you have more than enough-so does your father. Obviously you don’t need to sub him. If he wants to give money to your brother-is that really going to affect your life which seems very comfortable and enjoyable. Count your blessings.

It seems to me you all have funny ideas about money. Your DB would rather house share, at 40 years old, than get a mortgage like most people who could afford it would do. Your DF has so little pride that he would rather take off his DD than do the normal thing,of at least trying, to live off his pension or liquidising some is his substantial assets if needs be. And you would rather bankroll a man, who doesn’t need bankrolling, than use your superfluous money to pay off your mortgage. As for your mum, perhaps she’s the only sensible one, but she doesn’t seem to get a say in anything. Weird.