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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

619 replies

pombear · 19/03/2022 20:38

Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
TheKeatingFive · 22/03/2022 09:57

I think about Hermione reading all the “bad” newspapers to get a full picture every time the daily Mail posts articles challenging the trans ideology.

Shame Emma learnt precisely nothing from her character then

viques · 22/03/2022 10:13

@ZeldaFighter

This is such a difficult issue. I've always thought of myself as a feminist with progressive politics but a situation where a person goes from 554th to first isn't fair. So why are the only people saying that horrifically right-wing?

I was reading about Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller and both people attracted my sympathy.

I am so confused.

It’s not difficult, forget the feelingz for a minute, start with the physiology.

Before puberty boys and girls bodies are quite similar in many ways, because girls tend to start puberty earlier their growth spurt happens sooner, so in early teens girls are often taller that boys. But this early growth spurt advantage changes as soon as boys hormonal changes start. Boys average height very quickly overtakes girls average height. Boys have increased bone length, muscle size and consequently increased strength. Their heart and lung size increases to fuel this extra demand for oxygen and blood to maintain this taller, stronger body. Male blood is additionally more effective at carrying oxygen to muscles. Male muscles have a faster twitch reflex to respond to movement and activity.

Because female bodies are designed to deliver babies their pelvic floor is arranged to facilitate birth, this means that the pelvic girdle in women is not optimally designed for movements such as running, jumping ,twisting, changing direction which is not the case for male pelvic development where the pelvis supports lower limb action more effectively.

So even discounting the effect of testosterone on mood and aggression a male body after puberty has already benefitted from its effect on physical development through skeletal and muscle size, and bodily efficiency.

So when Andraya and Terry step onto the running track they are bringing all those innate physical advantages with them. When they race against other young men these advantages are evened out and it becomes a question of technique and skill to decide who wins. The better runner wins.Sadly for Andraya and Terry that was not them.

When they step onto the track and run against young women the only thing they need to think about is how much they want to win, and what they are prepared to do to succeed in that intention , they don’t need good technique and skill to beat young women who are smaller, less muscular, have a pelvic floor disadvantage and a less efficient system of conveying oxygen to their muscles.

If you are a not very good college or high school athlete who is female you accept that your chances of winning a valuable scholarship to further your education are pretty low so you concentrate on your academic grades. If you are a not very good college or high school athlete who is male you now have access to plan B…………….

TheKeatingFive · 22/03/2022 10:19

All the confusion and obfuscation around this issue arises from attempts to convince us that ...

The differences between male and female bodies are immaterial and/or it's possible to change sex.

Once we call out these ideas for the bollocks that they are, the issues become much clearer.

viques · 22/03/2022 10:22

I meant to add that if you are a good female college or high school athlete you are now expected to accept with good grace that a much poorer male athlete has the right to take your scholarship , your titles, your records, your pride in your achievements and piss them up the wall out of their dick.

nolongersurprised · 22/03/2022 10:33

David/Diana Thomas, in the Telegraph. Got paid a lot of money to transition and write about it

Jesus, it was grim. A first hand account of his fetish.

DrSbaitso · 22/03/2022 10:38

And when you are forced to accept that Trans Women Are Women, you can no longer discuss these comprehensive and irreversible physical advantages. You have been denied the vocabulary, since every word includes the male people.

It's not really a difficult concept. What's difficult is overcoming the idea that women must always cede to external demands, and the idea that if you recognise these differences and what they mean, it must be because you are a bigot who hates trans people and doesn't care if they die.

Zeugma · 22/03/2022 10:38

There was an interesting Facebook thread posted on mn a few days ago about why transwomen athletes seem to so often be pictured sitting alone and staring wistfully into the distance rather than standing next to other people. It was erm ….. interesting

That was a great thread and I meant to bookmark it but of course I didn’t. Can anyone else remember it or, better still, provide a link for viques and me?

JudgeJ · 22/03/2022 10:39

[quote pombear]Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result[/quote]
I would applaud any female swimmer who refused to take the pdium alongside these cheats.

Patternmagic · 22/03/2022 10:40

@ChiselandBits

I hear you. There were people whose relationships fell part over Brexit and then Covid, not for me but this issue I can confidently say I am happy to lose friends over. They can unfriend me if they don't share my view that a man cannot be a woman and do us both a favour.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/03/2022 10:47

@Zeugma

There was an interesting Facebook thread posted on mn a few days ago about why transwomen athletes seem to so often be pictured sitting alone and staring wistfully into the distance rather than standing next to other people. It was erm ….. interesting

That was a great thread and I meant to bookmark it but of course I didn’t. Can anyone else remember it or, better still, provide a link for viques and me?

Not what you mean but a couple of minutes of Emma Hilton's video gives a collection of athletes.
BoreOfWhabylon · 22/03/2022 11:06

@Ereshkigalangcleg

David/Diana Thomas, in the Telegraph. Got paid a lot of money to transition and write about it. In the 90s this male person was a celebrated MRA who wrote a book about how shit women are and that they lie all the time.
Even Diana is unhappy with the TRAs, according to this article from last year www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9280379/DIANA-THOMAS-spent-six-decades-man-does-say-trans-militants-stoking-intolerance.html
Zeugma · 22/03/2022 13:38

Thanks, Embarrassing - you’re right, it was a different thread but it did reference several of the people on that Emma Hilton video and mused on how strangely often they were pictured alone/crouching down, and not standing next to their competitors....

334bu · 22/03/2022 16:40

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3725560-A-picture-speaks-a-thousand-words-Transwomen-in-women-s-sport?pg=1

Lots of interesting pictures on here as well as information on how males who identify as women are depriving women of sporting opportunities.

endofthelinefinally · 22/03/2022 17:12

Just listened to a TW caller on LBC explaining how Lia has lowered her testosterone to exactly the same level as the other women, and has no advantage whatsoever. I can't decide whether that person really believes themselves or not tbh. It was right at the end of the show, so there was no challenge.

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 17:15

They would be putting Themselves at serious risk if They did that! That's why the IoC levels are higher than any woman can attain, or would be allowed to compete with.

Just another of the lies they tell themselves so they can sleep at night.

334bu · 22/03/2022 17:38

Wishful thinking!

Nnique · 22/03/2022 17:43

It infuriates me that time and time again a person with a penis gets the last word on this issue. Watch and keep track of how often this happens on tv/radio/whatever other platform.

The last word should go to a woman, speaking on behalf of women’s interests, since it is women whose existence/rights/protections/opportunities/achievements is being erased. Not to a person with a penis!

Theluggage15 · 22/03/2022 17:50

I see the labour MP Charlotte Nichols is telling people to pipe down and stop with the lazy transphobia about Thomas on Twitter. Nichols describes herself as a former competitive swimmer so understands all about the training Thomas must have put in…. Luckily an actual proper competitive swimmer Sharron Davies put her right.

filthyflavourz · 22/03/2022 19:12

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3725560-A-picture-speaks-a-thousand-words-Transwomen-in-women-s-sport?pg=1

I find some of these photos - and the lack of care for the health, safety and sheer fairness of women playing sports utterly sinister.

It’s not even that the sports bodies are allowing TW to compete unfairly. The potential for physical damage has been shown to be extreme! I’m guessing no one can legally challenge this bullshit for inflicting damage?

A stronger TW beating a naturally less strong woman (in so many varied ways) - but the possibility of that TW giving someone a completely unnecessary and potentially severe injury is misogyny at its finest.

Glittertwins · 22/03/2022 19:16

I've not heard of her and considering she's not far past the ages of the current NCAA swimmers and a similar age to a lot of ex national swimmers I know, I'm not entirely sure she was anywhere close to that level.

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 22/03/2022 19:30

@Glittertwins

I've not heard of her and considering she's not far past the ages of the current NCAA swimmers and a similar age to a lot of ex national swimmers I know, I'm not entirely sure she was anywhere close to that level.
You can check out swimmer’s times on the British Rankings going back quite a number of years.

I don’t think Charlotte Nichols has much of a claim to fame as an “ex competitive swimmer” - only 50s and 100s recorded at a SC competition in 2003 and a LC competition in 2005. That’s it.

Glittertwins · 22/03/2022 19:31

Didn't find her name/rankings- nothing equated to her DOB

Glittertwins · 22/03/2022 19:37

@TheAbbotOfUnreason - if I've found the same as you, those times are absolutely nothing to write home about for a 13-14 yr girl. Those times would be well outside the top 40 in our county!

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 22/03/2022 19:49

That’s what I was thinking too. Pretty sure it’s the same one - age and club tallies up. My 11 yr old pre-puberty DS wasn’t much slower!

Glittertwins · 22/03/2022 19:56

If I read the times correctly (been on there too much tonight for competition entry validation) my DS was faster age 8!

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