Page 17 | Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

TheKeatingFive · 21/03/2022 23:04

I'm confused about how to be kind and inclusive to transgender people whilst also protecting women's rights.

Thr starting point is acknowledging fact.

Men's bodies are different to women's.

You can't change be sex or change fundamental characteristics of those bodies.

If we decide it's the 'kind and inclusive' thing to do to allow TW to compete against women, then we acknowledged that women must be disadvantaged to allow this.

So perhaps we shouldn't feel the need to be 'kind and inclusive' at the expense of biological fact and other people's rights

334bu · 21/03/2022 23:10

I was sympathetic to Andraya and Terry because objection to a biological advantage had become mean and personal. It also wasn't clear from the media reports I read whether they were better runners because they were better runners or because they had been male. It wasn't clear when or how they had transitioned as that was private.

In their state there is no requirement for High School male students to have undergone any form of transition, other than changing their name and pronouns, to compete in the female category. Moreover, neither athlete had been previously good enough to be in their High School's male athletic team.

UKRAINEwearewithyou · 21/03/2022 23:33

It's another case of the man who wants to pretend to be a woman winning the women's race/sport because he is still basically a man but pretends he is a woman and some people go 'ok then' we have to do what he wants.

It's not right but who cares as long as the pretend woman's feelings aren't hurt.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 00:21

I've always thought of myself as a feminist

In what sense?

bruffin · 22/03/2022 02:23

Would you be sympathetic to an able-bodied athlete who identified as disabled and switched from mainstream sports to the Paralympics?

This happened at the 2000 summer when the 10 out of 12 of the gold medal Spanish team were found not to be mentally disabled and stripped of their medal

Waitwhat23 · 22/03/2022 03:56

Re: the Guardian, Suzanne Moore wrote a piece about why she left the Guardian -

Why I had to leave The Guardian - UnHerd" unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/

"The row over Suzanne Moore is a test for the Guardian's liberal credentials | The Spectator" www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-row-over-suzanne-moore-is-a-test-for-the-guardian-s-liberal-credentials

I used to read the Guardian, until they jettisoned journalistic integrity in favour of adherence to gender ideology.

MsTSwift · 22/03/2022 05:55

I used to read the Guardian until I realised how partisan they were in covering the cologne attacks. The incident didn’t fit their political narrative so they just didn’t cover it 🙄 When they finally did they did a victim blaming opinion piece basically saying the mass sexual assault was the womens fault for being western. That was it for me.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/03/2022 06:05

I was sympathetic to Andraya and Terry because objection to a biological advantage had become mean and personal. It also wasn't clear from the media reports I read whether they were better runners because they were better runners or because they had been male. It wasn't clear when or how they had transitioned as that was private.

You understand there are editorial policies for media reports that forbid reporters from being clear? Look at the coverage of Lia Thomas.

It wasn't mean and personal for the young women who lost out on scholarships and what winning competitions and state championships would have brought them?

It's not mean when ACLU, sports bodies and others organisations tell young women that they're racing against young women and mustn't complain for fear of social and even financial retribution?

FOJN · 22/03/2022 06:18

I was sympathetic to Andraya and Terry because objection to a biological advantage had become mean and personal. It also wasn't clear from the media reports I read whether they were better runners because they were better runners or because they had been male.

Objecting to someone cheating isn't personal. Terry and Andraya will always be male no matter what steps they take to transition. Humans cannot change sex.

Waitwhat23 · 22/03/2022 06:54

@MsTSwift

I used to read the Guardian until I realised how partisan they were in covering the cologne attacks. The incident didn’t fit their political narrative so they just didn’t cover it 🙄 When they finally did they did a victim blaming opinion piece basically saying the mass sexual assault was the womens fault for being western. That was it for me.

Just read that opinion piece. Bloody hell.

Their fault for being Western and having 'expensive smart phones' apparently..

spacehardware · 22/03/2022 07:09

"I'm confused about how to be kind and inclusive to transgender people whilst also protecting women's rights."

Biological males can be included. In men's spaces and sports where they belong. If they aren't good enough to compete, tough. I'm not good enough to compete with elite women either

334bu · 22/03/2022 07:18

There is a very simple solution to inclusion of transgender people in sport and that is to make one category open and then to have a protected category for female non doping contestants. In this way everyone can take part fairly including female athletes who identify as men and are taking testosterone. No female competitor would have to face unfair competition and/ or physical danger by competing against athletes with overwhelming physical advantages and no female identifying as a man will be excluded because they wish to transition.

nolongersurprised · 22/03/2022 07:23

I used to read the guardian as well, but it left me behind with its trans’ rights promotion. And deathly silence over issues like the women being raped by a transwoman on the NHS ward.

If it doesn’t fit their narrative they won’t go there, shoddy and cowardly.

Waitwhat23 · 22/03/2022 07:32

I've just done a general Google search and a site specific Google search using the search terms - 'woman raped on single sex ward' and 'Baroness Nicolson GRA reform and rape' and nothing has come up, at all.

Has the Guardian done any kind of article to do with the recent case, brought up in the HOL, or have they just ignored it entirely?

Waitwhat23 · 22/03/2022 07:33

*site specific Guardian search

DottyHarmer · 22/03/2022 09:11

I had “words” with someone on here a few years ago when I mentioned the Cologne business and they accused me of being a liar and a troll (I’ve been on MN 17 years) and making it up. I posted some liberal (but obviously not Guardian) links to show that it did indeed happen.

Fingers in ears or “Liar! Right-wing-bigot!” are the usual refrains of those seeking to shut you up on any “problematic” subject. Still, better to be called anything rather than implored to “be kind” - ugh.

DrSbaitso · 22/03/2022 09:23

If you want your news as fair and balanced as possible, you have to read a variety of sources, including the ones you don't like, and think critically about all of them, including the ones you do like.

It's hard. Nobody does it perfectly. But even a stopped clock, yadda yadda. The Quibbler was largely nonsense and fluff, but there came a point when it was the only news source willing to report the truth. And later, even the bad journalist did the same. God, Rowling thought of everything. Bloody queen.

Dinosauria · 22/03/2022 09:26

God, Rowling thought of everything. Bloody queen.

Didn't she just, scary really.

DrSbaitso · 22/03/2022 09:31

@Dinosauria

God, Rowling thought of everything. Bloody queen.

Didn't she just, scary really.

Yep.

And Hermione continued to read the Daily Prophet, even in its worst phase, because she knew it was important to know what it was saying.

DrSbaitso · 22/03/2022 09:34

With regard to current issues, the far right is no friend of LGBT people, or of women. But it sure as fuck knows what a woman is when it wants to roll back abortion or maternity rights.

Which is why it really doesn't help when the left pretends it doesn't know what a woman is. The left thinks it's being inclusive and progressive, and it's actually just obscuring, and therefore enabling and encouraging, the same old regressive shit.

What's that they say? The far right thinks women are private property, the far left thinks they are public property.

Wimbunds · 22/03/2022 09:38

@ZeldaFighter

Thank you for engaging with me.

I'm confused about how to be kind and inclusive to transgender people whilst also protecting women's rights.

I was sympathetic to Andraya and Terry because objection to a biological advantage had become mean and personal. It also wasn't clear from the media reports I read whether they were better runners because they were better runners or because they had been male. It wasn't clear when or how they had transitioned as that was private.

In saying horrifically right-wing, the majority of commentators have written in the Daily Mail. I usually read the Guardian.

The Guardian adores trans-identifying males and hates women.

nolongersurprised · 22/03/2022 09:40

I think about Hermione reading all the “bad” newspapers to get a full picture every time the daily Mail posts articles challenging the trans ideology.

DrSbaitso · 22/03/2022 09:42

Right leaning people have exactly the same sense of moral righteousness as left leaning people. That's why they're right leaning. If they thought the left was superior, they'd lean there.

nolongersurprised · 22/03/2022 09:43

There was a paper - not the guardian - a few years back that was publishing the musings/diary of a middle-aged man who was transitioning. I don’t know if they continued after past the instalment that he dedicated to the joys of having perky, bouncing breasts but they seemed to stop shortly afterwards

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 09:48

David/Diana Thomas, in the Telegraph. Got paid a lot of money to transition and write about it. In the 90s this male person was a celebrated MRA who wrote a book about how shit women are and that they lie all the time.