Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

[pombear]

Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result

@Dinksaurs no it really isn’t. This can’t be dealt with by pretending that a man can become a woman if he doesn’t have a functioning penis. No.

It’s simply not going to help. At all.

There is no way to make this fair other than to keep it fair.

Accepting the LIE being forced onto us really will not make things better. For anyone.

I think men who think they "feel like" they are women genuinely have no real understanding of what being a woman actually IS. And that is the scary thing.

My understanding of Kimberley's point was that she was saying if a man has surgery he's truely transitioned. That's different to identifying - they've actively chosen to become a woman and eradicate their male body. This imo is true gender dysphoria. But yes - she also pointed out it wouldnt change the muscle advantages that have occurred through having a male puberty with testosterone.

But it's a very interesting debate that LT can compete as a woman whilst retaining a male general is but Henig can still compete as a woman having actually had surgery to remove his breasts.

The inconsistencies from the sports bodies really do not help the cause to persuade people it's fair.

The issue comes from the fact anyone can say "I identify as a woman and will lower my testosterone - so you have to let me compete against woman"

I'd like to know if crufts are going to allow humans who ID as dogs to compete?

It’s not just about physique and biology- sportspeople will tell you it’s psychology far more than training.

Another way of saying "Women - you should just try harder"

And is a crap way of interpreting the hard work put in by sports psychs and athletes.

However, that antics of Thomas recently, sandbagging their performances, shows that some poepl are desperate enough to peddle anything!

Dinosauria

Why do we need to make any concession here?

Who chooses which women miss out and which women don't because of an arbitrary concession?

Surely the concessions need to be made on the male sports side. Such as make the male sports category an open category for any one. It has been proposed by numerous pundits and that, to me, would be some kind of concession. Because it removes the 'challenges of participating in the sport of their own sex' while protecting female sports needed due to physiological advantages.

And it is males making a concession to allow other males access to sport.

That's different to identifying - they've actively chosen to become a woman and eradicate their male body.

AKA They've had some serious plastic surgery. As they cannot eradicate their male body. They can snip off their male genitalia... but that won't make their body change sex.

We don't affirm any other dysphoria, do we? We accept it is an abnormality, in the clinical sense of the word, and we treat it.

It’s not just about physique and biology- sportspeople will tell you it’s psychology far more than training.

So how come Lia's psychology got so much radically better when Lia started competing with females?

Now now Keating that's cos she is now living her authentic life. So that proves it, nah!

eradicate their male body.

This is an impossible feat. They haven't done this. No one can.

@myislandhome

I think men who think they "feel like" they are women genuinely have no real understanding of what being a woman actually IS. And that is the scary thing.

Yes! I was recently listening to an interview with former pro cyclist Pippa York and found myself feeling very sympathetic, right up until the point where it became apparent that Pippa believes that the changes in Pippa's body pre and post transition are equivalent to the differences between men and women's bodies. Whilst I have no difficulty at all believing that a trans woman experiences profound changes and will be very aware of a decrease in strength, stamina etc compared to their pre transition performance that still doesn't make them a woman. Yes, it must be tough for the small number of elite athletes who have for totally unrelated reasons decided to transition. They will now be at a significant disadvantage when competing against other members of their sex with higher testosterone levels. But that doesn't mean it's fair or acceptable for them to compete in women's sport.

that's cos she is now living her authentic life. So that proves it, nah!

Oh riiiiiiiight.

Not enough eye rolls in the world, are there?

Why do we need to make any concession here?

We don't, and we shouldn't. But I was replying to a pp who thinks the genie is so far out of the bottle that a return to sanity is not an option.

It's maddening because it's so f*cking simple. It's insane anyone is having to waste any of their life giving headspace to this topic.

If how someone 'felt' was the most determining factor in everything, then everything we've ever known becomes blurred and fucked up.

If Liar Thomas can self ID as a woman, why can't I self ID as disabled? If a medical professional is not allowed to certify him as a biological male for the purposes of fair classification, how is it fair that I could be certified as able bodied and therefore lose out on my chance of a potential Paralympic gold medal.

It's all absolutely bullshit. When did common sense become something so unfashionable, people went to such extreme lengths to demonstrate a lack of it?

@SamphiretheStickerist

That's different to identifying - they've actively chosen to become a woman and eradicate their male body.

AKA They've had some serious plastic surgery. As they cannot eradicate their male body. They can snip off their male genitalia... but that won't make their body change sex.

We don't affirm any other dysphoria, do we? We accept it is an abnormality, in the clinical sense of the word, and we treat it.

That's what I meant but worded it badly.

Kimberley was saying they've chosen to surgically have a female body aesthetically but that it doesn't eradicate the effect of male puberty on it.

@Patternmagic

It's maddening because it's so f*cking simple. It's insane anyone is having to waste any of their life giving headspace to this topic.

If how someone 'felt' was the most determining factor in everything, then everything we've ever known becomes blurred and fucked up.

If Liar Thomas can self ID as a woman, why can't I self ID as disabled? If a medical professional is not allowed to certify him as a biological male for the purposes of fair classification, how is it fair that I could be certified as able bodied and therefore lose out on my chance of a potential Paralympic gold medal.

It's all absolutely bullshit. When did common sense become something so unfashionable, people went to such extreme lengths to demonstrate a lack of it?

You joke but actually this where disability sport is protected. Having a disability doesn't get you classified. You are tested from head to foot and scored on how much your body is affected compared to a normal range of movement. Then classified on this. Not all swimmers with a disability are affected enough to have a classification.

It still amazes me that disability is protected - and more so protected over woman's rights. It's usually the last thing anyone cares about!

But I also can't understand why someone gets to say "your cerebral palsy (for example) doesn't affect you enough to qualify as a para swimmer" yet they can't say "your penis means that you are not a female and therefore cannot compete as a female"

@itsgettingweird you have to play the word game better than that. MNHQ will, at some point, zub you if you don't, or posters will tear into you for something you seem to be saying.

So Kimberley was saying they've chosen to surgically have a female body aesthetically but that it doesn't eradicate the effect of male puberty on it.

Might start off by changing to Kimberley was saying they've chosen to surgically have a feminised body but that it doesn't eradicate the effect of male puberty on it.

Does that make sense? It's mainly semantics, but that is what this crap enforces. Or you suddenly seem to be saying the opposite of what you are thinking

Yes dinosauria. That genie ain’t going back in without a fight, but it did fit once and will fit again. In fact, maybe they all think a genie has magically changed male’s bodies to morph into females and changed the history of women’s sport and that the majority of the population just don’t see or know this yet.

[quote Campervan69]Huge support on twitter for this brave girl twitter.com/RekaGyorgy_/status/1505654417848213506?t=AXjHOzloRPpzpkV0-SPL3g&s=19[/quote]
Brave woman. No doubt she will receive all kinds of threats for this, wonder if she's endorsing anything I could buy to show support.

There is a damned good reason why men and women have separate events. It's called biology and other than in a few sports (dressage, long distance swimming etc), it's virtually impossible for men and women to compete equally.

Just as an example the women's 100 metres world record would get you ranked joint 6,436th in the world as a man. Deadlift? 310kg women against 501kg for a man.

So we're going down the path of writing women out of women's sport for the purposes of equality?

And if this continues, it will happen. Why bother training women for the Olympics when you can field a team of "trans" athletes?

Being pro women is not the same as being transphobic.

Whilst they would still have an advantage this definition would narrow down the definition and at least prevent erect penisis being waved around women's changing rooms by 'lesbians'

Nah

Is there a higher percentage of sporting types that are trans? Or is it illuminated due to this debate?

I’ve said it before on here: it doesn’t matter if a man reduces his testosterone level to zero - it will not shrink his shoulder girdle, lung capacity, cardiac output, femur length, oxygen carrying capacity, fast twitch muscle fibre ratio, pelvic shape, etc etc. He retains all the advantages of male puberty and an adult male body. And to let any man compete against women is cheating, pure and simple.

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@itsgettingweird you have to play the word game better than that. MNHQ will, at some point, zub you if you don't, or posters will tear into you for something you seem to be saying.

So Kimberley was saying they've chosen to surgically have a female body aesthetically but that it doesn't eradicate the effect of male puberty on it.

Might start off by changing to Kimberley was saying they've chosen to surgically have a feminised body but that it doesn't eradicate the effect of male puberty on it.

Does that make sense? It's mainly semantics, but that is what this crap enforces. Or you suddenly seem to be saying the opposite of what you are thinking [/quote]
Obviously I do.

It's just a minefield.

I'm still trying to get my head around the fact a male saying "I'm female" makes them a woman!

I'd stop trying. It only hurts you and validates them