Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

[pombear]

Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result

"Why does he keep saying "assigned a woman/male at birth" ?"

This is how TRAs parse that doctors get it 'wrong' because this child is really a boy/girl

Just to be completely clear....

I support female spaces for women on the basis of their sex
I think that biological women should compete against other women

In addition to this
I think that....
-Trans athletes are an emerging group
-People (broadly, and young people particularity) want to be supportive of the idea that Trans People should have opportunistic to engage fully in all aspects of society
-Transwomen competing alongside women of the female sex is unfair and dangerous for many reasons

Therefore, a way forward needs to be found; and in addition to having sport categories being restricted to biological women only, there may be some ways of having new types of competitions alongside, with biological female, male and trans athletes all competing against people in their class, but within an overall team which everyone's individual performances contribute to

@itsgettingweird

Why does he keep saying "assigned a woman/male at birth" ?

You aren't assigned anything. You are genetically and biologically one or the other.

It's one of the Newspeak terms invented to spread the fallacy that sex doesn't exist and doctors/midwives/parents just pull it out of a hat when a baby is born.

@bluelavender

Just to be completely clear....

I support female spaces for women on the basis of their sex
I think that biological women should compete against other women

In addition to this
I think that....
-Trans athletes are an emerging group
-People (broadly, and young people particularity) want to be supportive of the idea that Trans People should have opportunistic to engage fully in all aspects of society
-Transwomen competing alongside women of the female sex is unfair and dangerous for many reasons

Therefore, a way forward needs to be found; and in addition to having sport categories being restricted to biological women only, there may be some ways of having new types of competitions alongside, with biological female, male and trans athletes all competing against people in their class, but within an overall team which everyone's individual performances contribute to

Class male for male people, female for female people, and open for anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to compete in their exclusive sex class would be fine by me.

Or weight categories, like in boxing?

The thing is Blue, you’re making the mistake that others have made i.e. that a reasonable compromise is there if everyone tries hard enough but experience tells us that isn’t the case. It’s the ‘third space’ argument ie let’s have third spaces that TW can use in addition to singe sex spaces

Stonewall & the TRA insist that is barnstormingly transphobic. You must treat TW as women st all times, they are allowed in single sex spaces (in fact stonewall actively lobbying to do away with them) thete is as they say #nodebate. No third soaves even tho it would solve many issues.

It’s the same with sport. There is no way to compromise with different categories and all that for the simple reason, that TRA don’t want too. they want the validation of competing with women. They’re not interested in being fair to women

@HeddaGarbled

Or weight categories, like in boxing?

As a man, Laurel Hubbard belongs in a weight class that doesn't exist in women's boxing.

Weightlifting, I meant, sorry.

"There is no way to compromise with different categories and all that for the simple reason, that TRA don’t want too. they want the validation of competing with women. They’re not interested in being fair to women"

This with bells on

I think that....Trans athletes are an emerging group

Ok so if we are to progress on the basis of an alternative set of rules for this group, let’s define ‘Trans’.

Stonewall’s definition is very, very broad indeed and can often be interpreted differently. Where do we start?

@TigerMTV

Wow this thread moves quickly!

Re Lia Thomas - don’t the US swimming association scrutinise races where she’s clearly not trying or moving her legs when she’s supposed to be swimming … how can they justify letting this slide? It’s farcical.

@DottyHarmer
I’d like to know that too…

Nope because it’s not against the rules. You can do any stroke you want in freestyle, you just need to conform to the rules.

A negative split in a 200 or 500 yd race is fairly unusual in elite competition though - I think it was Pellegrini that used to try doing this.

@therealshedsadie

I think it has to be about biological sex?

So Trans Athlete
-A person who is a different gender to their biological sex that would face challenges in competing with people from their biological sex

I don't agree that there should be a separate open or trans category as it will still undermine women's sport

Basically if you were born with a dick then there's already a category for you, if you're too shit to shine then deal with it like everyone else has to

Weight class for what? Swimming, running, gymnastics?

It doesn't really work.

Physical weight is no indicator of body muscle and talent. There's already a very clear difference between the body development of different athletes related to the sport they compete at.

Sport is sport. Elite sport is competitive and does in reality have a very biological aspect to it. Most swimmers train as hard as each other in a squad and all do the same sets with the same times. Some are just naturally better.

To then have males and females competing anywhere other than being male or female you are taking away the fundamental element of sport.

You could even have sportspeople eating more or less to make a weight category to increase their chances of winning - not something any sports body would want to encourage.

It's a simple biological fact that male and female bodies develop differently due to the different hormones. You aren't assigned a sex - you are born one. You develop as that sex. Your body encompasses all that being that sex brings through growth and puberty.

Trans people should be encouraged into sport and there absolutely should be inclusion.

But it isn't inclusive to have a TW completing against biological woman at the expense of the woman. It excludes the woman for a minority group.

True inclusion is difficult but there has to be a better way to achieve it without oppressing an already oppressed group that has fought hard for equality.

sport is about the physical end of.

male sports for males
female sports for females
and disabled sports for disabled.

thats all if you don't want to be in your correct physiology based catagory, tough tit, theres a lot of things in the world people want but cant have deal with it.

-A person who is a different gender to their biological sex that would face challenges in competing with people from their biological sex

Why would anyone who is not denying their biological sex have challenges in competing with people from their biological sex?

We are constantly told by activists and trans people that no one is denying their biological sex. So, on what premise is someone having a challenge in competing with their 'biological sex'?

This is the issue of the conflation of terms of sex and gender.

And this is the issue of a group who wishes to force the language to change the suit themselves in this way.

And frankly, if people continue to be challenged by acknowledging their biological sex, that is something they perhaps need to get extra support on.

Women's sport should not be used as a 'validation' exercise for males who suffer from gender dysphoria. Women who play sport are not responsible for supporting males with this condition and I do acknowledge that it can be debilitating.

Agree. Weight and height are red herrings.
Yes, they will confer advantages in some sports but it's not that simple. As I said upthread (or it might have been the last one) my son is quite small but he is still faster than girls he trains with who are taller and heavier than him. The fact he has been through male puberty and they have been through female puberty makes them very different.
Height and weight differences are the most obvious thing people see when they look at photos such as those of Thomas on the podium this weekend but they are not the whole story by any means.
Martina Navratilova has spoken about this often. She says that even at her peak her male coach could beat her. I think she said that she might possibly be able to beat a lower ranked man about 1 in 20 times. And at the time she was always being criticised for being too muscular, looking masculine etc. If she'd been ranked by weight she'd probably have been playing smallish mediocre men and losing to them.
Women are not small men.

But apparently it would be unfair for a ‘trans-man’ to complete in the mens championship, so they continue to compete in the womens races too…
Iszac Henig is transitioning from female to male.
www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/ncaa-womens-championships-transgender-man-iszac-henig-qualifies-for-100-freestyle-final/

@OneTC

I don't agree that there should be a separate open or trans category as it will still undermine women's sport

Basically if you were born with a dick then there's already a category for you, if you're too shit to shine then deal with it like everyone else has to

Kimberley the transwoman on Vine said transwomen are only transwomen of they have had the operation, and that anyone with male genitalia has an unfair advantage.

Whilst they would still have an advantage this definition would narrow down the definition and at least prevent erect penisis being waved around women's changing rooms by 'lesbians'

No. Having surgery to modify one’s penis does not mean one is female. It changes nothing at all when it comes to biological fact, and biological differences.

Same for prisons, shelters, toilets, hospital wards, corporate schemes, politics etc.

Not to mention law and legislation.

No. A man without a functioning penis does not become female.

One day we will wake up and women will be erased.

A woman is not a castrated man.

@Nnique

Not to mention law and legislation.

No. A man without a functioning penis does not become female.

I do agree with you, but if as upthread suggested we have to make some concession/approach it a different way then I feel this is more reasonable that what we currently are allowing.

@myislandhome

One day we will wake up and women will be erased.

I don't agree, women are too important, who else would be support humans?