Page 11 | Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

Dinosauria · 21/03/2022 10:06

Lowri is doing really well, treading a careful line but fully supportive of women.

Dinosauria · 21/03/2022 10:07

Whataboutary from Owen

bluelavender · 21/03/2022 10:08

Sports governing bodies should be looking at disability sports for solutions.

In disability sports, there are classification systems to ensure that competition is fair- broadly speaking if you are competing with someone who has more functioning limbs than you, you will be at a disadvantage no matter how hard you train.

I wonder if part of the answer is for new types of competition- could there be team events that would include biologically born men and women, and trans athletes? That might be a way to ensure fair competition for all groups?

Dinosauria · 21/03/2022 10:17

Kimberley a transgendered woman says it is un level playing field if the person still has a penis.

Supersee · 21/03/2022 10:18

Well that 'discussion' was pathetic (channel 5).

DottyHarmer · 21/03/2022 10:20

Classification is never a solution for activists.

It doesn’t matter if a competitor is 6’5”, weighs 2O stone, is covered with hair and has a fully-operational set of male genitalia. If they say they are a woman, then they are a woman. And if you say different then you are an ignorant, bad transphobe.

Nnique · 21/03/2022 10:22

@bluelavender

Sports governing bodies should be looking at disability sports for solutions.

In disability sports, there are classification systems to ensure that competition is fair- broadly speaking if you are competing with someone who has more functioning limbs than you, you will be at a disadvantage no matter how hard you train.

I wonder if part of the answer is for new types of competition- could there be team events that would include biologically born men and women, and trans athletes? That might be a way to ensure fair competition for all groups?

No.

Fair would be sexes in separate categories.

We have a perfectly fair solution already. It doesn’t need turning upside down so that penis people can have whatever they want whenever they want.

MsTSwift · 21/03/2022 10:25

The “it’s only a few anyway” is a terrible argument!

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 10:26

@bluelavender

Sports governing bodies should be looking at disability sports for solutions.

In disability sports, there are classification systems to ensure that competition is fair- broadly speaking if you are competing with someone who has more functioning limbs than you, you will be at a disadvantage no matter how hard you train.

I wonder if part of the answer is for new types of competition- could there be team events that would include biologically born men and women, and trans athletes? That might be a way to ensure fair competition for all groups?

Why not just have sets for male born and female born people?

It may mean trans athletes have to hold off hormone therapy until they are no longer prioritising their performance and fitness, but that's exactly what female athletes have to do regarding the decision to have children.

Why is it so absolutely anathema that a male born athlete should just compete with other male born athletes?

purpleboy · 21/03/2022 10:29

Owen is an odious little toad.
He spouts such bullshit, and they never call him out on it, it's a shame some of the Mumsnet posters couldn't get on the show and put him in his place and expose his lies for all to see.

bluelavender · 21/03/2022 10:32

@Nnique

The door of Trans access into biological women spaces has already been opened. The most pragmatic solution is to ensure that women keep access to safe and fair competition, and find new (innovative?) ways to enable participation from emerging groups.

There is helpfully, a lot more considered debate about the specific ethical and safety issues about enabling people with male bodies into spaces for women of the female sex. (I credit Fair Play for Women particularly for their work) As awareness grows that the current solutions to trans participation can lead to significant negative impacts, new ways forward are going to need to be found.

Biologically born women need access to safe and fair spaces. Trans athletes want to be able to play a full role in society, which includes access to elite sport. There could be ways to do both in a way that is fair and equitable

BrightYellowDaffodil · 21/03/2022 10:32

He spouts such bullshit, and they never call him out on it, it's a shame some of the Mumsnet posters couldn't get on the show and put him in his place and expose his lies for all to see.

I would pay good money to see how his 'arguments' stand up to examination by Ben Cooper...

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 10:32

If I saw a transwoman athlete competing in her correct sex class, wearing women's gear for her sport, I'd cheer her so, so fucking hard.

itsgettingweird · 21/03/2022 10:33

@bluelavender

Sports governing bodies should be looking at disability sports for solutions.

In disability sports, there are classification systems to ensure that competition is fair- broadly speaking if you are competing with someone who has more functioning limbs than you, you will be at a disadvantage no matter how hard you train.

I wonder if part of the answer is for new types of competition- could there be team events that would include biologically born men and women, and trans athletes? That might be a way to ensure fair competition for all groups?

I see your thinking and can see where you're coming from.

However the reason disability sport does this is because of the physical differences. The classification system is very complex and intricate so ensure like for like swim as such - and that can mean someone like my ds who has spasticity in all limbs and limited annals movement swims against someone with a below the elbow amputation. Because the effects in the water are equal.

You just cannot do that with regards gender. Gender doesn't exist in the same scientific way and is a social construct that changes with society.

Sports is already classified the same way as disabled sports in that effect - you are classified by your sex which is determined by the hormones you produce based on genitalia etc.

In all these 3 classifications like are already swimming against like. And within all 3 - as with life in general - there are people who are better than others for all sorts of reasons.

I do agree there needs to be consideration of another classification. It could be transgender and raced in separate genders rather than sex.

But you can't regig the classification of male being someone with a penis and woman as having a cervix not all the hormonal effects that creates on a body from birth.

Nnique · 21/03/2022 10:34

[quote bluelavender]@Nnique

The door of Trans access into biological women spaces has already been opened. The most pragmatic solution is to ensure that women keep access to safe and fair competition, and find new (innovative?) ways to enable participation from emerging groups.

There is helpfully, a lot more considered debate about the specific ethical and safety issues about enabling people with male bodies into spaces for women of the female sex. (I credit Fair Play for Women particularly for their work) As awareness grows that the current solutions to trans participation can lead to significant negative impacts, new ways forward are going to need to be found.

Biologically born women need access to safe and fair spaces. Trans athletes want to be able to play a full role in society, which includes access to elite sport. There could be ways to do both in a way that is fair and equitable[/quote]
They already have access to elite sports. They do not need access to women’s elite sports. Penis people do not belong there.

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 10:39

The most pragmatic solution is to ensure that women keep access to safe and fair competition, and find new (innovative?) ways to enable participation from emerging groups.

Males are not an emerging group. They've been around for some time. Their differences to females are precisely why women have been oppressed and had to fight hard for any sporting opportunity at all.

There's nothing "practical" or "innovative" about trying to engineer the impossible situation of changing a man so that he is a woman. Women are not men with various artificial impediments. (How offensive!) You know this and you know humans can't change sex. They can make artificial changes with hormones and surgery, but they're still male or female, just somewhat altered. You know this.

The best solution is for males to compete against males and females against females, and leave the nebulous concept of identity out of the physical, tangible reality of sexed bodies. Anything else is merely the age old male oppression and overpowering of females, only this time under a specious claim of inclusivity that actually excludes women. It's not inclusive and it's sure as fuck not progressive. It's old as time.

Dinosauria · 21/03/2022 10:39

@DrSbaitso

If I saw a transwoman athlete competing in her correct sex class, wearing women's gear for her sport, I'd cheer her so, so fucking hard.

So would I

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 10:40

Why are male sporting contests not enough for male people?

Nnique · 21/03/2022 10:40

@DrSbaitso

The most pragmatic solution is to ensure that women keep access to safe and fair competition, and find new (innovative?) ways to enable participation from emerging groups.

Males are not an emerging group. They've been around for some time. Their differences to females are precisely why women have been oppressed and had to fight hard for any sporting opportunity at all.

There's nothing "practical" or "innovative" about trying to engineer the impossible situation of changing a man so that he is a woman. Women are not men with various artificial impediments. (How offensive!) You know this and you know humans can't change sex. They can make artificial changes with hormones and surgery, but they're still male or female, just somewhat altered. You know this.

The best solution is for males to compete against males and females against females, and leave the nebulous concept of identity out of the physical, tangible reality of sexed bodies. Anything else is merely the age old male oppression and overpowering of females, only this time under a specious claim of inclusivity that actually excludes women. It's not inclusive and it's sure as fuck not progressive. It's old as time.

Quite.

We don’t need a brave new world, thanks.

bluelavender · 21/03/2022 10:43

@itsgettingweird

All great points but I would base the classification system on sex, rather than gender. We have a body of knowledge about how women's bodies differ to mens bodies.

I can see a potential argument that Trans athletes may face a disadvantage compared to biologically born male athletes due to hormone treatments that they have undertaken (I'm minded about the damage to Keira Bell)

I fully support women's access to safe and fair spaces. I just don't see how, given that there has been trans access into female sporting spaces that this will get changed quickly (and with minimal impact on the women competing now, who only have a limited elite sporting window, yet can't speak out for well understood reasons) unless innovate and pragmatic solutions can be found

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 10:48

I just don't see how, given that there has been trans access into female sporting spaces that this will get changed quickly

Well given the policing of our language and the shouts of bigotry every time we discuss it, it looks like an uphill climb. But it'll certainly never happen if we just roll over and collude in the absolutely nonsensical idea that we can fairly pit men against women if only we are "innovative" enough.

bluelavender · 21/03/2022 10:56

@DrSbaitso

I know that men cannot change sex; and have never said this

I am a disabled female athlete; and know that both my disability and my sex impact on the level of athletic performance that I am capable of.

In disability sports there is already a mechanism within the classification system to enable male and females to compete together. Broadly, female athletes get a a 'discount' to their classification to reflect our biological differences.

@Nnique you've said that we don't need a Brave New World; I think we are unfortunately already there. Access to protected spaces has already been lost. It's going to, I think, be easier to ensure future protection of spaces required on the basis of sex to start finding new solutions, as I don't think are going to be able to shut some of the stable doors that have been opened

DrSbaitso · 21/03/2022 11:06

Access to protected spaces has already been lost. It's going to, I think, be easier to ensure future protection of spaces required on the basis of sex to start finding new solutions, as I don't think are going to be able to shut some of the stable doors that have been opened.

There is no level of innovation that will correct males in female sports. If we think that's the solution, then the battle is already lost. Partly because we've stopped fighting it, and partly because we've conceded to the falsehood that men can become women with enough "innovation". Just like telling women to try harder.

Most of these changes came in under darkness. That was intentional; the Denton report details it. Policies made in the shadows can't survive in the sunlight, unless we decide to kowtow to them.

Women have overcome worse than this.

itsgettingweird · 21/03/2022 11:13

Watching Jeremy vine now.

The TW Natalie saying they need to find a way for trans inclusion into sport.

Agree.

The problem is that they can't see that so do this and include a minority group it shouldn't be at the detriment to woman's sport and the hard won rights of woman to be treated equally.

itsgettingweird · 21/03/2022 11:15

Why does he keep saying "assigned a woman/male at birth" ?

You aren't assigned anything. You are genetically and biologically one or the other.