Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

@Boredoutmymind

Men have 40% more upper body and 30% more lower body strength than women. That’s on average. If an average man and woman were to start to strength train, he would put on far more muscle than her. Men have a higher red blood cell count which gives them greater stamina. Some women are bigger than some men, yes, but they would very rarely be stronger.

Dividing sport into male and female is standard, because the gap in physical ability is so enormous.

We could change this, and adopt a variety of categories like boxing. That would be fair.

But what we cannot do is put biologically born males into female sports, because the physical advantages men have are only partly removed by taking female hormones. Allowing a trans women to compete in female events is unfair to all the female athletes. Trans men competing in male events does not create the same issue as trans men are physically disadvantaged.

Your point that there are more than two sexes born is largely exaggerated. There are a tiny number of intersex babies born, but the vast majority of people can be clearly defined as male or female, with the physical characteristics and capacities that implies.

I am sympathetic to trans people FYI, but the interests of a minority cannot be allowed to override the interests of a majority ie women.

My daughter has learning disabilities. It has taken years of work and fighting the system for her to be able to acccess a level 3 course at college. She has to have a TA and various other support. She has come top in every exam in her year. Not because of the concessions she has but because she has worked so hard after fighting to be on the course. It’s not just about physique and biology- sportspeople will tell you it’s psychology far more than training.

Sex = female
Gender = female
= woman

Sex = male
Gender = female
= transwoman

The term ‘cis’ does not need to be added for clarification. No new word is needed.

It is not just sports though is it. Using gender (which can be chosen and changed) as opposed to sex (which cannot be chosen or changed) to define male/female will see women - without the lived experience and significant advantage of men - have to work 10 times as hard to come second, third….well, ‘not first’.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

Oh, honey...

DSDs aren’t an argument against 2 sexes. By definition, something has gone amiss, with individuals lacking enzymes or hormone receptors and the like. Fertility is often reduced or absent and if present, individuals still produce either eggs or sperm. There is no “sex spectrum”.

Some people are born with or acquire a missing lower limb - this doesn’t change the fact that humans are a bipedal species.

And Lia Thomas is a bare-faced cheat. I don’t care if he’s swimming within the rules, he has no integrity

I have been taller than most men all my life. I have broad shoulders and large feet. This has not made me better than most women at sport.

Besides, men are BUILT differently.

Their pelvises are wrong.
Their spines are different.
They have more hand strength.
Their feet are a different shape.
Their knees are in a different position.

Testosterone is the icing on the cake, but the cake is already in the oven by puberty.

Testerone increases for women in menopause, but they don't suddenly become elite athletes.

@DrivingHomeChristmas why do you think separate male and female teams became a thing in the first place? Why not just have 1 swim team?

@ThatsALotOfPassionfruit

Are there actually any instances of transmen competing in competitive male sports or is this another thing solely reserved for women to have to just suck up?

Like a PP I fear for the things my young DD will have to put up with in years to come to avoid being (allegedly) transphobic

If memory serves me well then there was a trans man on testosterone in wrestling who recognised being on testosterone was an unfair advantage. Still competed though, didn't they?

I think they then moved to the men's, played one match that they got absolutely creamed in and promptly retired.

There are women pushing this, but obviously because they are not going to start beating men their impact is minimal.

Personally I feel that being trans is like every other lifest

I want a new word.

Womenphobia.

But it's not so much fear as a hatred or contempt for women.

I think it's real and exists in the minds of everyone who ever quotes the word "transphobia".

What will happen to people with xxy chromosomes?

What about people who present as female at birth but don't have a reproductive system, or who have ultrasound show undescended testes?

Or perhaps we need to wait for a woman to be injured or killed in contact sport competing against a biological male?

That’s already happened in Aussie rules football I believe. Hannah Mouncey broke someone else’s leg and there were other not as serious injuries caused by Hannah. I believe they are now banned but suing the sporting body over this.

Cis means they identify with the gender they were born as, ie. Born female, identify as female.

How is gender any more relevant than religion in a competition of physical ability?

I found this More or Less podcast incredibly helpful and interesting in understanding the testosterone issues. It examines the science and statistics, not the emotions/hyperbole.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0014rmb

It's wildly, wildly unfair to allow someone who has been through puberty and lived in a male body to compete in a female category. Even by reducing their testosterone they still have an inherent advantage. I can't remember the exact figure but the swimmer they looked at on the show was ranked 400+ in the male category when competing. After transitioning they were ranked 1st, by a country mile.

@DrivingHomeChristmas

Are there any stats on how many times Transpeople don’t win at races? Maybe she was the best because she was so motivated and worked hard? It must take a lot of determination to be a trans athlete and maybe that determination is in her sport preparation too.

Look at the photos. Then come back.

This person is a mediocre male swimmer. Become a transformation and miraculously you're a winner.

I'm sick of this. What's the point in a women's category if men can still enter and take everything.
You can live like a stereotypical woman but you can't change your genetic make up. Whoever is allowing this should be ashamed, women's rights are going backwards again.

@RandomBasic what do you mean "what will happen to them"? Why should anything happen to them, this is not Nazi Germany?

What will happen to people with xxy chromosomes?

What about people with XXY ie Klinefelters? How is this relevant to Lia Thomas? What’s having Klinefelter’s got to do with being trans

@DrivingHomeChristmas

Are there any stats on how many times Transpeople don’t win at races? Maybe she was the best because she was so motivated and worked hard? It must take a lot of determination to be a trans athlete and maybe that determination is in her sport preparation too.

There was one instance where LT was 38 seconds ahead of their closest competitor. That sort of time is not because LT trained any harder than the others. It is caused by an unfair advantage.

@DrivingHomeChristmas

'Are there any stats on how many times Transpeople don’t win at races? Maybe she was the best because she was so motivated and worked hard? It must take a lot of determination to be a trans athlete and maybe that determination is in her sport preparation too.'

I'm sure Lia did work hard, but so would all the other swimmers. But they have been through male puberty which means they have a larger lung capacity, longer limbs, more muscles. Do you honestly think none of that is relevant? Just look at the photos of this person towering over most of the women .

If effort was the defining factor it doesn't explain why Thomson as a man was around 400th.

CIs is an offensive term. I’m a woman. What people use cis for is to describe the normal/average/usual state of affairs. There’s no need for it. People do it because they want to be able to call transwomen “women” and women “cis women “. Thus doing away with the trans prefix and pretending that actually it’s the trans women who are the status quo l

Lia Thomas is a man and a cheat, pure and simple. Identify however you like but compete in your sex class. Why can’t he ‘identify as a woman’, with the long hair, but race in the men’s category?

He walks around in the women’s changing room exposing his erect penis and shatters records set by women due to the strong advantages his male body gives him, and excludes women from competing or receiving medals in the competition. How in the name of ‘inclusive’ is this fair?! It’s EXCLUDING women.

As for the testosterone argument - the levels that sporting bodies say they should be dropped to is still FIVE TIMES higher than a natal woman’s. If a woman artificially raised her testosterone level to the same level as the ‘dropped’ level she would be banned from competing! It’s a fucking joke.

One day people will look at those photos and say ‘What? You let a man race against women and you applauded it? What?’

Stand up for women’s rights. This is nothing but misogyny and insanity.

@RandomBasic

What will happen to people with xxy chromosomes?

What about people who present as female at birth but don't have a reproductive system, or who have ultrasound show undescended testes?

Women are not super humans for males who don't fit in perfectly to society's expectations.

The swimmer discussed on the podcast is Lia Thomas too btw don't think I made that clear.