Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

How can a discussion about the differences in body weight and strength be transphobic? Transgenderism addreses identification within the framework of the social construct of gender. I would say that to argue that biological males are entitled to compete in the same class as biological females is misogynistic not transphobic.

It’s so fucking stupid that we’re even having to debate about this.
Just the fact that we’re NEVER discussing the impact of trans men in men’s sport demonstrates the inequality of all this. It makes me furious that sporting committees piss around nit picking over mols of this and testosterone levels of that when it’s as clear as night and day that there are fundamental differences between the two sexes and fundamental DISADVANTAGES that women/ girls face when competing against men/ boys.

I think that the issue with Caster Semanya and the other XY DSD athletes competing as women, also has a lot of racism at play. They are not identified and diagnosed as early as they should be, presumably due to poorer access to healthcare, and they are then exploited by coaches/ and sports governing bodies for medals. They definetly shouldn't be competing in womens sports, but they are victims too.

Surely events for women and events for men are separate because there are physical differences between male bodies and female bodies that determine the physiological limits of what those bodies can do. It's why you can tell an adult male skeleton from an adult female skeleton just by looking, for example, let alone a living breathing body with musculature, hormonal and strength differences.

Gender shouldn't even come into sports; most people are born with either a female body or a male body and regardless of their gender identity once grown, they should compete in the appropriate category for them. Male bodies compete against male bodies. Female bodies compete against female bodies. Gender should not be the determining factor, it is grossly unfair to have a male body that went through normal male puberty competing against female bodies that went through female puberty.

I think that the issue with Caster Semanya and the other XY DSD athletes competing as women, also has a lot of racism at play. They are not identified and diagnosed as early as they should be, presumably due to poorer access to healthcare, and they are then exploited by coaches/ and sports governing bodies for medals. They definetly shouldn't be competing in womens sports, but they are victims too.
Completely agree that these athletes are often exploited by their Athletic Assiciations but where does the racism come in?

Some excellent posts on here, and I'm so pleased that @ImaniMumsnet and MNHQ listened to posters and reversed their decision to transfer the thread to the Sex and Gender topic. This affects everyone.

I understand that Lia Thomas hopes to compete in the 2024 Olympics. I rather hope this happens - it will surely peak anyone still unaware of this truth-twisting, misogynistic and homophobic reality-denying belief system.

@Catkitkat

The link compares high school boys with female Olympians. Have a look, it’s very interesting

It is! Thanks for sharing

As a follow up to my previous post here are the names of the three women whose medal chances in the 800m in the Rio Olympics were scuppered by three men running as women.

Placed fourth, fifth and sixth in the official results but morally first , second and third.

Melissa Bishop( Canada)

Johanna Jozwik (Poland)

Lynsey Sharp (GB)

Yanbu, op. I am really glad this is finally getting some exposure.

@viques

As a follow up to my previous post here are the names of the three women whose medal chances in the 800m in the Rio Olympics were scuppered by three men running as women.

Placed fourth, fifth and sixth in the official results but morally first , second and third.

Melissa Bishop( Canada)

Johanna Jozwik (Poland)

Lynsey Sharp (GB)

I see GB Athletics has kept Lynsey Sharp on lottery funding ever since, probably because they appreciate that she should have been the Olympic bronze medallist.

GB's Laura Muir also lost out on a bronze medal in the World Athletics Championships 1500m in 2017 to an athlete now banned from competing under the current rules.

And because the rules on DSD don't apply to the 400m yet, another athlete lost out on Olympic silver in that event this year.

@ToCaden

Some of the posts on here are hateful and transphobic (I'm not talking about the ones saying transwomen shouldn't compete against cis women BTW, but the ones who try to insist transwomen are not women).

For my take on the debate I do agree that certain transwomen competing against cis women is akin to a cis women taking steroids/testosterone competing against cis women not taking these which would be seen as an unfair advantage.

Saying that, a transwomen competing against cis men can be seen as unfair in the same way if they've taken hormone replacement for a while as their testosterone levels would be much lower than the average man.

I do like the idea someone mentioned of transwomen having had to take hormone replacement for long enough to decrease their testosterone to cis female levels before being allowed to compete against cis females.

I also like the idea of having your women's sports, men's sports, then a free for all everyone can compete just because that sounds like it could be fun.

Haven't gone through all twelve pages (partly due to some of the hate) but in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, aside from the gender identities male, female, non binary, gender fluid, and everything in between, just considering for once the purely physical sex rather than gender categories you can pass on x or y to your children.

Xy is male at birth. Xx female at birth. However you can also get combinations such as xxy and xyy. Xyy presents as male sex. Xxy again tends to present as male, but has different levels of testosterone and characteristics to Xy.

Then you get into intersex. A baby born with both male and female parts. This gets complex as there are various causes. You can have Xx intersex, Xy intersex with all kinds of causes. If you have an Xy baby for example who is unresponsive to testosterone so has even less than a cis woman and thus more female and less male build and other characteristics than cis women, would you consider them male or female when it comes to sports.

Added to that you can get xxx or even xo (only one x chromosome).

I think op's question could make an interesting debate if we don't devolve into transphobia (including deliberately misinterpreting what trans is. I've seen a few posters who've phrased it as a flippant choice) and I greatly thank those of you who are considering the subject objectively and not filling this thread with more hate.

P.s. For the poster who stated transwomen were not women as they can't bear children, please think things through before posting. There are plenty of cis women who are also unable to bear children.

See @notyourmummy there is reason why words are important. Changing the meaning of a word or group of words for ideological basis is political spin

Take @ToCaden's post quoted above, do little reshuffling and [ adding some of my comments for a participation "fun" medal ] :

Some of the posts on here are about biological differences between female and male humans hateful and transphobic (I'm not talking about the ones saying males transwomen shouldn't compete against female females cis women BTW, but the ones who try to insist males transwomen are not females women).

For my take on the debate I do agree that certain males transwomen competing against female females cis women is akin to a female females cis women taking steroids/testosterone competing against female females cis women not taking these which would be seen as an unfair advantage.

Saying that, a male transwomen competing against male males cis men can be seen as unfair in the same way if they've taken medication hormone replacement for a while as their testosterone levels would be much lower than the average male man.
[NB ignore that this establishes there are 2 distinct measurements]

I do like the idea someone mentioned of males transwomen having had to take medication hormone replacement for long enough to decrease their testosterone to female cis female levels before being allowed to compete against female cis females.
[ oops the word slippage from woman to generic sex class female]

I also like the idea of having your female's women's sports, male's 'men's sports, then a free for all females and males everyone can compete just because that sounds like it could be fun.
[Everyone gets a medal]

Haven't gone through all twelve pages (partly due to posts about biological differences between female and male humans hate) but in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, aside from the swim trunks and the swimsuit option there are bikini tankini everything from naturist to burkini gender identities male, female, non binary, gender fluid, and everything in between, just considering for once the purely physical sex rather than social stereotypes of presentation eg males wear swim trunks, females a swimsuit gender categories you can pass on DNA x or DNA y to your children.
[Is it awkward pointing out that link between sperm and male babies 🤷🏼‍♀️....]

Humans develop along 2 pathways sperm or ova production. Sperm production is classified Xy is male at birth. Ova production is classified Xx female at birth. However you can also get combinations which before DNA was described as "intersex". These are called Variations of Sexual Development (VSD) or differences of Sexual Development (DSD) such as xxy and xyy. Xyy presents as male sex. Xxy again tends to present as male, but has different levels of testosterone and characteristics to Xy.

Babies can be born with an VSD, therefore you too should agree that certain males may compete against females.
Then you get into intersex. A baby born with both male and female parts. This gets complex as there are various causes. You can have Xx intersex, Xy intersex with all kinds of causes. You can have Xx intersex, Xy intersex with all kinds of causes. If you have an Xy baby for example who is unresponsive to testosterone so has even less than a cis woman and thus more female and less male build and other characteristics than cis women, would you consider them male or female when it comes to sports.

There are numerous VSD.
Added to that you can get xxx or even xo (only one x chromosome).
[NNB these are not contagious/transmissible, its part of evolutionary sexual reproduction]

I think op's question [ there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on] could make an interesting debate if we don't devolve into posting about biological differences between female and male humans transphobia (including deliberately misinterpreting what trans is.
[Oops missed the explination on what "trans is", and shoehorning VSD's in was odd ]
I've seen a few posters who've phrased it as a flippant choice) and I greatly thank those of you who are considering if certain males may compete against females the subject objectively and not filling this thread with more posts about biological differences between female and male humans hate.
[Hysterical women just cant be kind🙊🙉🙈]

P.s. For the poster who stated males transwomen were not female women as they can't bear children,
[because the male reproductive system usually creates sperm and ejects it through the penis]
please think things through before posting. There are plenty of female females cis women who are also unable to bear children
[women who have medical problems not also male, so women dont have a male reproductive system or their own sperm or a penis]

@334bu

*I think that the issue with Caster Semanya and the other XY DSD athletes competing as women, also has a lot of racism at play. They are not identified and diagnosed as early as they should be, presumably due to poorer access to healthcare, and they are then exploited by coaches/ and sports governing bodies for medals. They definetly shouldn't be competing in womens sports, but they are victims too.* Completely agree that these athletes are often exploited by their Athletic Assiciations but where does the racism come in?

I'm on a US based athletics forum and the racism is apparently along the lines that white nations have oppressed black athletes throughout history and denied them opportunities, and criticising such athletes is part of this. Or if you criticise the appearance of DSD athletes for being particularly masculine, thats racist because its imposing white ideas of what women should look like.

Of course when Lynsey Sharp spoke out about her disappointment after losing her Olympic bronze due to the 3 athletes with DSD, on the very same forum, she was notoriously trolled for "crying white tears", being "weak", "slow", etc. The abuse was horrific and I believe British athletic contracts now prevent athletes from speaking out on the issue (otherwise they will lose their funding). Which is why presumably its only ex-athletes such as Sharron Davis who are speaking out.

Yanbu. They can say what they like, most people find this ridiculously unfair. Womens rights constantly eroded.

I fear many younger women have fallen for the rhetoric ProfessorScarlett.

ToCaden Xy is male at birth. Xx female at birth. However you can also get combinations such as xxy and xyy. Xyy presents as male sex. Xxy again tends to present as male, but has different levels of testosterone and characteristics to Xy.

Which is generally Turner Syndrome or Klinefelters Syndrome, which are so disabling that its almost impossible that anyone with such a genetic disorder would become a top class athlete.

Then you get into intersex. A baby born with both male and female parts. This gets complex as there are various causes. You can have Xx intersex, Xy intersex with all kinds of causes. If you have an Xy baby for example who is unresponsive to testosterone so has even less than a cis woman and thus more female and less male build and other characteristics than cis women, would you consider them male or female when it comes to sports.

I think the word "intersex" is quite misleading as the most well known athletes are typically male (i.e having testes which produce testosterone in the normal male range) which the person's body has responded to to produce the secondary, but not the primary male sex characteristics. In the case of an athlete such as Dutee Chand, where the person's body appears to be so insensitive to the testosterone produced by the testes, the issue is much more subtle. No-one knows if it still presents an advantage or not because the evidence has only been submitted to CAS to justify DSD rules from 400m to 1 mile so far.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

There’s no such thing as a cis woman. Just a woman.

@334bu

*I think that the issue with Caster Semanya and the other XY DSD athletes competing as women, also has a lot of racism at play. They are not identified and diagnosed as early as they should be, presumably due to poorer access to healthcare, and they are then exploited by coaches/ and sports governing bodies for medals. They definetly shouldn't be competing in womens sports, but they are victims too.* Completely agree that these athletes are often exploited by their Athletic Assiciations but where does the racism come in?

Because expoilting young white people with DSD then parading them across international media when questions inevitably get asked, rather than diagnosing and appropriately managing their condition in confidenitatily would be seen as abuse. It definetly seems to be more of a black athlete issue.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

“Do some research” or “educate yourself” is always the pathetic wail of people who can’t back up their own arguments with facts. Surprised to see this whiney stuff on Mumsnet.

Transmen can indeed compete in Men’s competitions - but they can’t win them (and would be in physical danger in contact sports like boxing, rugby, American football etc.)

There are two sexes. Just two. You are deluded / brainwashed. Won’t be replying to you again.

Also - it’s “you’re” not “your” maybe do some research on grammar while you’re at it 😁

Caster Semenya, Aminatou Seyni, Margaret Wambui, Francine Niyonsaba, Beatrice Masilingi, Christine Mboma...

I don't think these women ever had much of a choice as to how they identify publicly or to competing as women. They reportedly have female genitalia and many African countries aren't known for human rights or advanced practices for DSD children.

Christine Mboma was born and raised in a very poor rural village. She didn't come to the attention of athletics because of her running skills, she came to their attention because she was DSD.

We don't know how this individuals identify in their personal lives. Some of them choose to present in very masculine ways. Caster married a woman, has a child with her, and presents in a very masculine way. A couple of the others do as well. If you google image search them and look at pictures with family or out of competition, you will see they appear to avoid most signs associated with feminity. And while that may be personal preference - it would be unusual for the majority to have the same personal preference.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

www.iol.co.za/entertainment/celebrity-news/local/caster-semenya-celebrates-birthday-and-wedding-anniversary-on-same-day-344c17a7-99e0-413e-b566-08262ecbcc61

Why is it the people saying do some research are generally the ones who think research means google?

I agree that the precedence of athletes with DSDs from predominantly African nations is in large part due to poor healthcare services in these countries not identifying the condition early on.

I’ve read that in some areas athletics coaches/scouts actively look out for girls who appear more masculine/androgynous as they know that (up until recently) it was a loophole they could exploit. They are being

Oops, posted too soon. Meant to conclude that with “They are being exploited for the gain of others.”

Is it really true that Lia was parading around with their swimsuit round their waist? I've Googled but haven't come across any images of that.

I think we need to be careful here - along with stories about an 'erect penis' in the changing room - that we're reflecting what's actually happened.

Cyw2018 Because expoilting young white people with DSD then parading them across international media when questions inevitably get asked, rather than diagnosing and appropriately managing their condition in confidenitatily would be seen as abuse. It definetly seems to be more of a black athlete issue.

The other side of the issue is of course the black women athletes from those countries who are being left out of teams and being denied opportunities because of the pushing/exploitation of athletes with DSD. Imagine being a woman athlete on the brink of international success, with amazing talent, and just needing that bit of help by way of better coaching, better facilities, training camps, etc but no-one being interested in helping you because of DSD athletes being promoted by those in charge of your national federation instead.