Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

@sanluca
I was not referring to Semanya, there are other cases of women athletes from Namibia and Kenya with higher testosterone levels who were banned.

Those who say that Thomas is a woman are telling lies and asking others to collude with those lies.

Gender ideology is tantamount to a cheaters charter in sport. It doesn't matter if the transwoman doesn't win every time, even by competing a woman is displaced.

Gender ideology allows men to say that they are something they are not and erodes boundaries of women and girls.

What a win for the patriarchy. Men get what they want and dissenting women are the bigots.

Thomas really does demonstrate this perfectly because of the vast physiological differences with the female competitors. What really struck me was that Thomas didn't need to even kick his legs to win the 500 m free style, moving the upper body was enough.

Thanks Dino I'd like to know too 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I often use my sons disability when discussing these matters as it's very important and related.

If we have disability sport we can have "identifying as what I believe a gendered woman is" events!

Christine Mboma Namibia
Beatrice masilingi Namibia
Margaret wambui Kenya

All have the same condition as caster semanya . They are all male.

@Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase

Just because someone says or feels something is true doesn’t actually mean it is true. People are entitled to believe what they want but it mustn’t come at the detriment to other people - especially if what they think or feel isn’t true and other people are told they must deny the truth to avoid hurting someone else’s feelings.

It's another way of presenting the "my truth". That's always been dangerous in my eyes too. "You mustn't tell me you disagree because it's my truth and therefore is true to me and is true if I say it".

The worlds going completely bonkers!

If Lia Thomas is a woman, why is she parading around on poolside with her cossie down around the waist? Female swimmers would not do this. Likewise fully naked with full male genitalia in the changing rooms?

This is completely wrong. It is cheating. Lia should hand the medal back accept they got it all wrong and present it to the real winner.

Then recognise biology means that they cannot both transition and compete. You choose one, you lose the other. Simple.

That will sort the truly dysphoric from the ones taking advantage of a creed. Of which there are far too many.

Lia could have put any talent to really positive use by NOT crushing the dreams of young women just because they could - a blatantly male thing to do - and instead coaching them to win versus other women - if they have any real talent that is.

This is what anyone who truly believed they were a woman would surely do, knowing this is fair and helps other women not hurts them.

Lia clearly acted like a man and put personal glory first.

I notice that on social media many transgender people - those with an inner gender identity whatever that is - are silent as they can see defending this is not a good look, But cannot easily lose the mantra as it is a belief system they are trapped within.

If this debacle changes any minds and frees them from this dangerous ideology then it might be one positive those women who should have been 1st,2nd and third can take from the unfairness.

However, many transsexuals are openly condemning this and calling it what it is - cheating. Without hesitation.

I am one.

Transsexuals generally transition young without having to harm the lives of those around them or leave a trail of heartbreak from wives and children. Transsexuals almost always have surgery as we are driven by body dysphoria not some mystery inner identity apparently fixed just by demanding use of a pronoun or the need to eradicate all gatekeeping which is so traumatic (as in a hassle for them to fool the doctors). Transsexuals find it almost impossible to live with this for decades without seeking help,

Yet transsexuals seem almost in unison out there saying the same thing. This is wrong. It should not be allowed. Despite being the ones who will have overwhelmingly made the most physical changes versus those who often have made none because an inner identity is what they have and that needs no change - just affirmation.

That transsexuals would not compete and know why biology matters in sport shatters the suggestion that those with a new found gender identity have any credible argument at all. We accept competitive sport is a price to pay for fixing our lives. It is deeply frustrating to us that most see trans as now a monologue. But our voices are drowned out as we are tiny in number compared to the new tranny army.

@Helleofabore

African female born athletes keep getting banned from Olympics due to not meeting Female eligibility rules for reasons of their higher testosterone level, yet nowhere in those rules a biological male is prevented from competing in women's category?

Please do check your facts before believing this comment.

'female born' does not necessarily mean these athletes are 'female'. These have a high likelihood of being a person who has a male difference of sex development. A male. It may or may have not been picked up at birth. But by the time these athletes are competing at the Olympics, they and their coaches are fully aware that they are NOT females. Each of those picked up and 'not meeting female eligibility' rules will have been picked up because they have one of those DSDs.

Media outlets have guidelines which means that they may not be able to report this correctly. However, there are documents out there with their conditions listed.

Please do check this. I know at the time Christine Mboma and others were reported repetitively that they were 'females being excluded' they are people with these rare differences and media have to report them as 'female'.

These athletes do have some benefit of even a partial androgenised puberty and hence they have some male competitive advantage.

@Helleofabore So if they could be excluded why wouldnt biological males from women's competitions?

It is not hateful to recognise biological reality, nor biological advantage.
It is not hateful to refuse to say the Emperor is wearing clothes (i.e. TWAW).
It is not transphobic to say that LThomas is a cheating male swimmer - it is true.

Reality and truth have been taking a back seat for too long because of this pervasive ideology that IS hateful - it is hateful of women. Women's rights are being eroded, women are being gaslit (cf NHS story), women are being told to "be kind" and move over and allow men to take their places - in sports, in politics, in awards, in scholarships, in funding, in jobs - everywhere. THAT is hateful.

I will not accept that biological males are women. They are not.

I will not bow down to the Newspeak that is being imposed on us.

I have seen such nonsense, not just on here (thankfully only very few posters!) but on Twatter too - one of the latest was the tomboys are just TM refusing to accept they need to transition! NO!

Men cannot be lesbians, as they are not women. Men cannot be women. It is NOT "hateful" to believe this. It is biological fact.

As an addendum, I believe Caster Semenya has refused to have his internal testes removed, so maintains his testosterone advantage. No reason why he should undergo that surgery if he doesn't want to - but then he shouldn't compete in the women's category either.

I would also like to know what rights transpeople DON'T have. Apart from forcing us all to participate in their belief system, which isn't a right.
And I'd like to point out as well that being transgender is not a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act unless they have a GRC - and even then, sex segregation is allowed to supercede that.

I believe that W(L)T, G(L)H, C(H)M, FF, CeCe Telfer and other high profile TW in sport don't give a shiny shit that they've beaten women by virtue of their male puberty-enhanced bodies - I think they love it. FF in particular has declared how much fun it is to beat up women, especially TERFs. They're not interested in fair competition - they're only interested in winning, and beating women.

[quote user1481055867]@sanluca
I was not referring to Semanya, there are other cases of women athletes from Namibia and Kenya with higher testosterone levels who were banned.[/quote]
I was also not referring to Semanya in my post discussing these males who were reported to the 'females' being excluded on the basis of their 'naturally high testosterone' on the previous page.

I know who you are talking about exactly because we had thread after thread on it on the Feminist Chat board.

They are all males with differences of sex development being reported as being 'females'.

He’s a bloke he looks like a bloke, sounds like a bloke has a dick like a bloke. Identify as what you like but so wrong making females uncomfortable in the changing room

And even prepubescent 14 yr old boys are swimming faster than fully developed 15 yr old girls. I've seen it with my own eyes. Of course there is a massive difference between the sexes. There is no place for a male to compete against females in swimming, athletics or any sports such as these.

@user1481055867 - right now the criteria for competing in female sports categories are pretty lax - you basically need to have either been born biologically female or used drugs to get your hormone levels to roughly resemble those of an adult biological female. this swimmer qualifies under the second route. these DSD athletes like Semenya etc don't qualify on either ground - they'd be fine if they were prepared to take hormone treatment.

Men should not be declaring themselves female to win races or competitions for which they do not and can never qualify. We don’t need this in weightlifting, woman of the year, bike races, swimming, golf or anywhere else. Just fuck off and compete with your own sex. I think they are cheats and should be tested as such. Refuse to compete with them, refuse to share your prisons and hospitals with them, refuse them in your changing rooms and toilets.

@Glittertwins

If Lia Thomas is a woman, why is she parading around on poolside with her cossie down around the waist? Female swimmers would not do this. Likewise fully naked with full male genitalia in the changing rooms?

I think (but do not quote me!) that there is actually a rule about this. If a female sex female swimmer pulled her costume to her waist she would be exposing her breasts which is against the rules. Female swimmers must wear a full costume and males can wear jammers (I don't know if they can wear full costumes as a male sue to the advantages these costumes give).

I think that's a very important point and think you've raised a very important issue. If LT identifies as a female then she feels and sees her body is a female and therefore wouldn't want to be exposing her breasts in public as woman wouldn't.

I think the LT situation is a very good thing in one respect. It is an actual and very visual representation of what women have been trying to say for years and have been shouted down, monstered and told to be kind. Those pictures of LT and the nonsensical anti scientific nonsense that have got us to this point are cutting through to people who thought it wasn't really a big thing, too scared to stick their heads above the parapet and if they ignored it it would go away. Hasn't though has it? It has just got worse.

So if they could be excluded why wouldnt biological males from women's competitions?

I know, right?

It was a ridiculous ruling. All the experts were saying so.

The new ruling is not any better to be honest. The OIC has now left it up to the sporting bodies to make their own rules and have said that they acknowledge that male advantage cannot be mitigated. Yet, they state there is a 'social inclusion' element that sporting bodies should consider as well.

It is incredulous that the OIC has done this. They acknowledge it is unfair based on physical advantage and that nothing really changes that.

@WrongSideOfEverything

Of course YANBU Only a misogynist or a virtue signalling idiot will say this is okay

This 100%

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

😂 no.. sex is biological, gender (which is different) is somewhat subjective. So you are the wrong one here. This trans woman has a biological advantage since she went through puberty as a male. She developed a larger lung capacity, taller height, less body fat, bigger and stronger muscles as a result. The testosterone she takes now does Not negate that advantage. It’s Transphobic to point that out and disagree with it

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

So much ignorance and stupidity this post

Another few problems AFAIK.

1. Testosterone kicks in prepuberty. So even if smaller than his twin sister, a male child will already have been laying down his physical advantage.
2. Can someone cite this? Even after three years of lowering testosterone, the current IOC standard for transwomen is still much higher than for women. The IoC need to look at themselves. They came late to the game when Eastern European women were being dosed with testosterone and have belatedly AFAIK removed medals from those women. But now transwomen with higher levels of testosterone than the dosed up East German women can compete.

Male athletes should be speaking out. Including Pinsent, Sebastian Coe for the UK.

*it’s not transphobic that should say

@Glittertwins

And even prepubescent 14 yr old boys are swimming faster than fully developed 15 yr old girls. I've seen it with my own eyes. Of course there is a massive difference between the sexes. There is no place for a male to compete against females in swimming, athletics or any sports such as these.

15 year old school boy football teams have beaten the US, Australian and I think the Brazilian, international women's teams over the past few years.

Gender ideology is tantamount to a cheaters charter in sport. It doesn't matter if the transwoman doesn't win every time, even by competing a woman is displaced.

^^This. See also the fiasco of Laural Hubbard www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/58054891

I've read the winning swimmer was not cheered on by the crowd. I hope they were not applauded on receiving their prize, don't give such a hollow victory a celebratory ending.

@Mouthfulofquiz

I don’t think it’s transphobia in this instance. It’s a multitude of different factors that are making this case unfair and women’s sport needs to be protected. Mens sport will not be affected in the same way. I’m no athlete myself and I understand that some women are taller / stronger but you can’t really deny that there are physical advantages to being born male. I’m not saying that to take away from this athlete now being a woman. It’s not about that.

But that athlete isn't a woman

And it's believing this nonsense which has led to this farce