Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

A person with a penis should not be changing with people with vaginas no matter what they call themselves

Has the question been asked and has there been an answer to what other sporting categories are ok to allow access for people not in that category to?

Such as

• is it ok for any adult to identify as a child (and they are out there! Look up Stefaneeknee) and compete against the under 15s? under 14? under 13? under 12?

• is it ok for any adult under the older age categories to identify as older than they are and compete in those categories? All comfy for a 25 year old to compete in the over 80 age category?

• is it ok for a fully able person to self identify into the category for those without sight? I mean, potentially an athlete without sight can run as fast as a fully abled person maybe... is that ok? Competitive?

• is it ok for a professional athlete with decades of training behind them to compete in a competition as a beginner?

Those supporting any male competing with females, please can you tell me if you are also ok with these scenarios?

And if so, why?

And if not, why?

Sporting categories are there for a reason, if they are unnecessary for females, they should be unnecessary for all categories by that same logic.

And if that person with a penis chooses to have surgery on that penis, that person still doesn’t belong there. Or anywhere else where women are entitled to privacy, dignity and protection.

I had a message deleted?

I said nothing transphobic at all or nothing bad.

This getting ridiculous.

If people are being deleted for just having an opinion this debate will continue to be shut down and unheard and woman will continue to be eroded in society.

My opinion had been and repeated will be that gender is a social construct. There is not definition of what male and females are with regards gender.

There is a definition of what these are biologically as a sex.

I will keep repeating this over and over regardless of if I'm deleted.

This isn't transphobic. It's fact.

@antisocialsocialclub

This thread is so refreshing. If I said any of this in my workplace I’d probably be either sacked or made a pariah. Yet they claim to be freedom of speech (unless you don’t swallow the some pill of course)

Really? I've yet to meet a person in real life who doesn't think is absurd.

@Xerac

What will we have next ? A brave and stunning transwoman winning first place in the under 10's 50 metre dash ? I am sure her victory will be due to her dedication to training and will to win. There could be no other reason, could there ?

She identifies as a child?!

I'm bored of being labelled as being transphobic purely for standing up for fairness to, and the rights of, women.
You are absolutely right, OP. That is a man and he is cheating.

Its ridiculous. Maybe I'll identify as male and enter a giving birth competition.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome/
They are male with an extra chromosome

African female born athletes keep getting banned from Olympics due to not meeting Female eligibility rules for reasons of their higher testosterone level, yet nowhere in those rules a biological male is prevented from competing in women's category?

Please do check your facts before believing this comment.

'female born' does not necessarily mean these athletes are 'female'. These have a high likelihood of being a person who has a male difference of sex development. A male. It may or may have not been picked up at birth. But by the time these athletes are competing at the Olympics, they and their coaches are fully aware that they are NOT females. Each of those picked up and 'not meeting female eligibility' rules will have been picked up because they have one of those DSDs.

Media outlets have guidelines which means that they may not be able to report this correctly. However, there are documents out there with their conditions listed.

Please do check this. I know at the time Christine Mboma and others were reported repetitively that they were 'females being excluded' they are people with these rare differences and media have to report them as 'female'.

These athletes do have some benefit of even a partial androgenised puberty and hence they have some male competitive advantage.

@itsgettingweird

I had a message deleted?

I said nothing transphobic at all or nothing bad.

This getting ridiculous.

If people are being deleted for just having an opinion this debate will continue to be shut down and unheard and woman will continue to be eroded in society.

My opinion had been and repeated will be that gender is a social construct. There is not definition of what male and females are with regards gender.

There is a definition of what these are biologically as a sex.

I will keep repeating this over and over regardless of if I'm deleted.

This isn't transphobic. It's fact.

I did wonder what you had said as your posts are always considered.

I am continually astounded by the breathtaking arrogance of males demanding women redefine the definition of "woman" to suit men.

Can't win in sport as a male? Simple, identify as woman despite being anatomically male and have and male levels of testosterone and having gone through puberty as a male so you have 40% more muscle mass and strength than a woman, you can just wait for the plaudits of your bravery, for the medals to come rolling in while laughing yourself silly at all the women whose lives and sporting careers you have just destroyed.

I can't believe I had to wait until I was in my mid 50's for a men in dresses to come along and explain what a woman is 🙄

I'm not a "cis", I am woman, an adult female and I won't tolerate being told a person with a penis can put a dress on a be a woman.

I feel so sorry for the young women who have trained for years, only to be trounced by someone who is achieving times far out of their reach due to biological advantage.

I think sports bodies really need to consider this now, or women’s sport is dead. Whether that’s separate categories for trans women, or calculating the time advantage given by male puberty to level the playing field… I would rather just see trans women excluded from women’s sport- but something has to change.

The casual disregard for women is mind blowing when you think of it

LT will feel sad if they can’t compete with women - quick change allll the rules to make them happy

Women feel sad LT is competing against them - tough shit women! Wgat you didn’t think your feelings mattered did you?

Just because someone says or feels something is true doesn’t actually mean it is true. People are entitled to believe what they want but it mustn’t come at the detriment to other people - especially if what they think or feel isn’t true and other people are told they must deny the truth to avoid hurting someone else’s feelings.

This makes me feel so angry - where is it going to end? I cannot begin to imagine the training that those women did and the sacrifices they and their families made, over the years, for them to compete.

To be beaten by a man, and to lose out on the places that are rightfully theirs. Words fail me.

We could just reduce women's sport to equestrian events and chess.

Of course YANBU
Only a misogynist or a virtue signalling idiot will say this is okay

It’s at its end already:

Penises in women’s prisons.

Penises in rape crisis centres and shelters.

Penises on women’s wards.

Penises on women’s shortlists for prizes/awards/commendations.

No toilets without penises in schools/universities/workplaces.

Penises in girl guides.

Penises everywhere!

Be kind to the penis person. Comply with what the penis person wants.

Here is another question for those posters supporting males being included in female sports on the basis of 'inclusion'?

The background to this this statement from the Sports Councils Equality Group:

'Current research indicates that testosterone suppression does not negate this physical advantage over females and so cannot guarantee competitive fairness and/or safety.'

'The guidance provides content and a framework on which sports can make decisions and sets out some of the options a sport might consider, from prioritising transgender inclusion, or protecting the female category, and to additionally introducing universal admission.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10044995/Trans-athletes-retain-advantage-sport-say-UK-sports-councils.html

And the OIC new guidelines from November 2021

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/nov/16/trans-women-should-not-have-to-reduce-testosterone-say-new-ioc-guidelines

Joanna Harper, the visiting fellow for transgender athletic performance at Loughborough University, said that while she welcomed the IOC’s stress on inclusion, it was wrong to downplay the advantages of transgender women.

“It is important that the IOC has come out in favour of inclusion of trans and intersex athletes, but I think sections five and six of the framework are problematic,” said Harper, who is a trans woman and a competitive athlete herself. “Transgender women are on average, taller, bigger and stronger than cis women and these are advantages in many sports. It is also unreasonable to ask the sports federations to have robust and peer reviewed research before placing restrictions on trans athletes in elite sport. Such research will take years if not decades.”

If people are going to support 'social sciences' models for inclusion over 'physical sciences' which show that benefits of male puberty are not reduced enough to be competitive, how do you then account for the fact that female's face sexist discrimination from birth still.

Unless you live in utopia where your young daughter has not experienced this, then maybe you cannot answer. I have seen it for myself though where at school the 'boys' are welcomed to play football at lunch but the girls are turned away. By other students and by teachers monitoring the group.

And the boys football team gets the best coaches. They get sent to football camps and get better opportunities.

The girls? Well, they also then face their peers telling them that 'girls don't do/play [insert activity]'.

PLUS how do these sporting bodies then account for the effects of menstruation on females vs those who are male? And there is plenty of evidence mounting up to show that there is indeed negative effects on training, on bodies and on mental health around menstruation in sport.

So, even if a sporting body deliberately chooses to go the social science 'inclusion' route, how do they make for these allowances?

(I use ‘penis person’ as an equivalent to highly offensive and dehumanising terms like ‘uterus haver/bleeder/menstruator’ and all terms of that ilk. What good for the female goose is good for the male goose.)

Nnique don’t forget in boxing matches

Oh yes. Boxing matches, swimming, weight lifting.

Seems like there’s nowhere a penis shouldn’t be if the penis person demands it.

Even lesbians have to be all about the penis now.

@Nnique

It’s at its end already:

Penises in women’s prisons.

Penises in rape crisis centres and shelters.

Penises on women’s wards.

Penises on women’s shortlists for prizes/awards/commendations.

No toilets without penises in schools/universities/workplaces.

Penises in girl guides.

Penises everywhere!

Be kind to the penis person. Comply with what the penis person wants.

I know I'm beginning to think that unless I develop a penis I can't call myself a woman at all!

Don't challenge the penis person , we wouldn't want them upset.