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Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

1000 replies

whytcvv · 19/03/2022 05:47

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

OP posts:
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26
jenny5000 · 19/03/2022 12:36

Thanks mumsnet

Rainbowshit · 19/03/2022 12:37

@CaveMum

As I mentioned earlier, considering how rare DSDs are, it’s “amazing” the the podium in the Womens 800m Final at the Rio Olympics was filled by 3 athletes with the same rare condition.
Quite!
BellePeppa · 19/03/2022 12:37

This reply has been deleted

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Hasselhoffsheadband · 19/03/2022 12:38

Again, why all this talk of intersex people?

We are talking about Lia Thomas who, until 3 years ago, was a fully grown man who swam in the men's category. Lia Thomas does not have a DSD so why we invoking intersex people once again?

Marvellousmadness · 19/03/2022 12:39

100% agree
And that isn't "transfobia". That's reality

SoupDragon · 19/03/2022 12:39

Why not for curiosities sake? I also believe cis women with very high testosterone (much higher than other cis women through supplementation or other means) also may have an unfair advantage.

I can believe that transwomen are women and not be abusive or dismissive of a protected minority group, and yet think critically about the question op has raised.

Personally I just wish others on this thread could do the same. I'm going to back out now as it's making me lose faith in humanity.

@ToCaden people continuing to use "cis" to describe women when just women will suffice make me lose faith in humanity.

You say you are not dismissive of a protected minority group yet you are extremely dismissive of women.

TheBurmundseyIndustrialEstate · 19/03/2022 12:41

Even Caitlyn-Republican-Clueless-Olympian-Jenner is saying it's unfair then....
I don't know why they don't let them compete but add seconds /strokes/metres etc to their results ?

So there would be trans men (born female) that would be given a comparative advantage in the men’s race?
Usane Bolt may have come second to a trans man if they had been given a competitive 5 second advantage- would that be fair?
Who would set the advantage it would be a minefield and unworkable.
It only makes sense when it’s done by sex class - if men are allowed in that class women cannot win and we have no female sports figures to inspire women to take up sport.

itsgettingweird · 19/03/2022 12:43

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Helleofabore · 19/03/2022 12:45

Why not for curiosities sake? I also believe cis women with very high testosterone (much higher than other cis women through supplementation or other means) also may have an unfair advantage.

I can believe that transwomen are women and not be abusive or dismissive of a protected minority group, and yet think critically about the question op has raised.

And yet, people are constantly 'dismissive' of a protected characteristic - females and their needs.

If you choose to accept the redefinition of a well established word that is your business. You cannot expect others to agree with you when it is also their word you are redefining without their permission.

The word 'woman' has been forcibly changed to suit the needs of males. And you talk about humanity. Supercilious, no?

Ask yourself what is the effect of 'queering' the word woman? Exactly who does in benefit to forcibly change the meaning? Was it kind to forcibly change the meaning? Particularly when the word has meaning in law.

Personally I just wish others on this thread could do the same. I'm going to back out now as it's making me lose faith in humanity.

We have just seen on Maya Forstater's employment tribunal that in activist's minds there is NO way to discuss this that is not considered offensive. How is that not offensive to women? The EHRC has stated it is not transphobic to discuss the conflict of women's rights with other groups.

Compelling people's speech to force people to use chosen pronouns and labels is not kind or inclusive is it?

And frankly the use of 'cis' is also false.

Who the fuck are the group of people who actually 'identify' with gender stereotypes used by another group to describe them? And here you are using it so forceably describing and 'othering' women who are female and who have no 'gender identity' but YOU are lumping them into a group called 'cis' for your own illustrative purposes.

If you want to describe yourself that way, fine. Go ahead. Because most people I know don't fit into gender stereotyped boxes or feel they have any gender. Therefore fit under the 'trans' umbrella. If I extrapolated that out to the rest of the world's population, I would pretty much gather that is the majority of people.

But please stick around and actually engage with people instead of policing their words.

There is a lot of research and papers out there that answer your question. Have you actually tried to listen to the people and experts who are refuting that males should ever be included in female sports to answer your question below?

Why not for curiosities sake? I also believe cis women with very high testosterone (much higher than other cis women through supplementation or other means) also may have an unfair advantage.

If all you have is policing people's words, and you have done no independent research outside of your own carefully curated information sources that don't offend you, then surely that must be raising questions in your mind.

That you choose to withdraw also says a great deal about you and your own willingness to delve deeper to find answers and understand why this thread has been so busy and with so many women saying 'No thank you!'

(for anyone else who bothers to read this, No thank you is the answer given by a very brave woman who is an weightlifter when asked if any one of the three medal winners wanted to comment on Hubbard's inclusion in the Olympic event. That is all she could say and that was after none of the others answered for 9 seconds.

Maybe ToCaden can answer why women who just placed in the top 3 in their sport in the world felt they could not answer? Because it would jeopardise their future. Kind? Inclusive? Fuck off with that)

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 19/03/2022 12:46

I used to swim back in the day.

I trained with a man.

I won once. A whole once.

When he got cramp.

Xerac · 19/03/2022 12:47

What will we have next ? A brave and stunning transwoman winning first place in the under 10's 50 metre dash ? I am sure her victory will be due to her dedication to training and will to win. There could be no other reason, could there ?

UserLibra78 · 19/03/2022 12:51

I would like to thank all the posters for giving me so much materials and thoughts to take away and discuss with my teenage son.

Runningupthecurtains · 19/03/2022 12:52

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yet Thomas wasn’t determined, motivated or hardworking enough to beat the 461 males ranked above Thomas when Thomas was competing against other males.

I wonder why that is, when both sexes are supposedly physically equal?

Why across all the athletic events at the Olympics had there never been a woman determined enough, motivated enough and with the right phycology to run as fast, throw as far or jump as high/far as the men do? Perhaps the female competitors should stop thinking about lipstick, shoes and kittens and train a bit harder and run a bit quicker ehh? Hmm

The male body is different to the female body. Why to males and females have different disciplines in gymnastics if there is no difference? Why are certain events separated into weight categories if we are supposed to just shrug our shoulders and accept that being tall/short/muscular/slight if just one of those things when it comes down to sporting advantage.
Anyone who has undergone male puberty does not belong in female sport those that do are cHEats.

CaveMum · 19/03/2022 12:52

Excellent series of posts here from ScienceofSport in relation to claims that the only reason we have sex segregated sport is because men don’t like women competing with them and proceeding to name a series of random sporting events where a women beat a man.

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1505108167109361665?s=21

Helleofabore · 19/03/2022 12:52

@FarangGirl

My sympathy for Caster Semenya is only increasing reading the posts here of people who know better than her what her gender is, despite her being intersex , legally female, raised as female, and always identifyin as female. The hatred is crazy.
The medical condition that Semenya has is publicly known FarangGirl. It is listed in a published report.

While you talk about 'hatred' it is you who is actually not well enough informed.

People with that medical condition have testes. Stating that fact in relation to sports is legitimate in that that person is male and is subject to regulations around their medical condition. The science on this one is actually clear, sports bodies are seeking ways for inclusion for this group. It is also Semenya's choice to not lower their testosterone (which is not just a 'naturally high female level' by the way) to race.

That is what Semenya is fighting at the moment in court. The ability to avoid lowering their testosterone to the level that the sports federation has decided is 'fair' as a compromise.

user1481055867 · 19/03/2022 12:55

From what i understand this athlete was pretty mediocre in men's category and now they seem to be overtaking even olympic medalists with their performance. Seems like game is rigged against women all the time. African female born athletes keep getting banned from Olympics due to not meeting Female eligibility rules for reasons of their higher testosterone level, yet nowhere in those rules a biological male is prevented from competing in women's category?

Why by default women seem to always be disadvantaged and now having to redefine ourselves, define as cis, have governments decide legal definitions of women, worry about single sex spaces etc. All this seems due to men who have crossed onto our side and causing all these problems and expect women to be silent otherwise shamed or cancelled.

I do not hear much about women who trasnitioned to men demanding to redefine what a man is or causing so much havoc and controversy, I maybe missing those news. Its a mans world?

ChiswickFlo · 19/03/2022 12:58

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

Absolute word salad 🥗

Biology is not bigotry

ChiswickFlo · 19/03/2022 12:58

@Xerac

What will we have next ? A brave and stunning transwoman winning first place in the under 10's 50 metre dash ? I am sure her victory will be due to her dedication to training and will to win. There could be no other reason, could there ?
You joke but....
Nnique · 19/03/2022 12:59

We do not have to redefine ourselves. We do not have to define ourselves as c**. We are entirely free not to and to reject that term altogether.

We are what we are, nothing more or less. Woman = adult human female. Biological fact.

Sex is immutable and I will not play along with nonsensical claims that it isn’t.

ChiswickFlo · 19/03/2022 13:00

@Nnique

We do not have to redefine ourselves. We do not have to define ourselves as c**. We are entirely free not to and to reject that term altogether.

We are what we are, nothing more or less. Woman = adult human female. Biological fact.

Sex is immutable and I will not play along with nonsensical claims that it isn’t.

💯 👏
antisocialsocialclub · 19/03/2022 13:02

This thread is so refreshing. If I said any of this in my workplace I’d probably be either sacked or made a pariah. Yet they claim to be freedom of speech (unless you don’t swallow the some pill of course)

StrictlySinging · 19/03/2022 13:06

Definition of sporting

‘fair and generous in one's behaviour or treatment of others, especially in a contest.’

This should work both (all!) ways

S’not sporting is it otherwise. So no male or female categories just one for humans? Or follow the science and compete against those most physically similar.

Gerbilteeth · 19/03/2022 13:12

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

What insane rubbish - have to wonder how some people even manage to get dressed in the morning. If enough of your friends or people on Twitter tell you that 2 + 2 = 13, will you believe that too? There are of course only 2 sexes - even cave men managed to work that one out. Exactly how much objective research have you carried out on this? So because transmen (biological women) are kindly allowed to compete against far far stronger men in sport (surprise surprise nearly all transmen choose to compete in the women's events), those same far far stronger men should be allowed to compete against overwhelmingly weaker women? Why should any man who is prepared to say that he feels like a woman be allowed into the women's events to thrash all the other competitors, despite being a mediocre sportsman when competing against other men? Why should women's enjoyment of sport, and often their safety, and in America in particular the financial scholarships that go with sporting excellence, be sacrificed to pander for the feelings of men who somehow think it worthwhile to win against women (no doubt often with a financial incentive)?
sanluca · 19/03/2022 13:14

African female born athletes keep getting banned from Olympics due to not meeting Female eligibility rules for reasons of their higher testosterone level, yet nowhere in those rules a biological male is prevented from competing in women's category?

Caster Semanya is actually biologically male with a male DSD so should also never have been allowed to compete in the womens category.

But even more ironically, the rules for Semanya as male are way more restrictive than they are for Lia, also a male, to be eligble for participation in the womens categories

Snoodsy · 19/03/2022 13:17

@antisocialsocialclub

This thread is so refreshing. If I said any of this in my workplace I’d probably be either sacked or made a pariah. Yet they claim to be freedom of speech (unless you don’t swallow the some pill of course)
Yeah, I try to talk about it with my extended family and their eyes glaze over lol.
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