Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

Caster semanya is male - the DSD they have 5 alpha reductose deficiency only affects men. Their testees did not descend as they should but remained internal. They still produced the normal level of testosterone and went through a normal male puberty in all other respects

They won multiple world & Olympic medals displacing women in the process. My sympathy is reserved for all the women who never got a fair chance to win.

sometimes you need to make a distinction and this is a clear way to do it.

No it isn't. It's an ideological position, not a factual category.

@Wedonttalkaboutrats

The other thing I don’t understand is how this transgender swimmer or the transgender mma fighter mentioned earlier in the thread feel any sense of achievement or pride when they win. Is it about money? Notoriety? Because it surely can’t be about the love of the sport or the desire to strive to be the best. It’s like, how great do I feel when I beat my husband at table tennis? Pretty darn good. But when I thrash my dc? A bit mean.

This is what Fox Fallon (MMA) had to say on Twitter -

'For the record, I knocked [two] women out,” he tweeted to other Twitter users, including Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling.

“One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TE[R]Fs in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It's bliss. Don't be mad.”'

@Snoodsy

So trans women are women and women are cis women. So it’s women and cis women. We are now a subset of a woman? We’ve had our own word stolen right out from under our noses.

Yeah, fuck right off with that.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Just to be clear about Caster Semenya, it would be easy to get the impression from a lot of our media that Semenya is a woman, but he has a difference of sexual development that only affects male people.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Semenya has identified as male for most of his life (except on the race track). Certainly he has known he was male since he was 18 when tests confirmed this, but his voice breaking at puberty probably gave him a big clue.

Notice how in this interview he describes women as 'them' not 'us'.

Some of the posts on here are hateful and transphobic (I'm not talking about the ones saying transwomen shouldn't compete against cis women BTW, but the ones who try to insist transwomen are not women).

That transwomen are not women is a straightforward fact which shouldn't even need to be insisted on. What is the definition of a woman? Because 'anyone who feels like one' isn't a definition. On that basis, if I (a 50yo white woman) feel like a 6yo Chinese boy, then that's what I am, right? Or if I feel like an elderly three-legged labrador, I'm one of those?

If transwomen literally are women, then how do we even know whom to exclude from competing against women? Because we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. And if you say 'Well no, they aren't literally women', then what on earth even is a 'non-literal' woman?

I had not heard about Fox Fallon before, that is horrific. I mean the Thomas thing is just pure cheating, but he is not specifically physically endangering other competitors by his cheating.

To anyone who says there are more than 2 sexes; sorry but no. There's xx (female) and xy (male). Even if a trans 'woman' has had the full op to remove male genetalia (which in any case is very rare), every cell in their body, every ounce of DNA is still male.

@SoupDragon

sometimes you need to make a distinction and this is a clear way to do it. The vast majority of the time, men or women suffices.

Men or women are always sufficient descriptions. The only distinction needed is the addition of Trans.

Too right.

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

Rubbish, they girls were robbed by the cheaters.

Wasn’t a female fighter somewhere not even told that she was in fact actually fighting a male? I’m quite sure I remember that happening - in which case she could not have consented to the potential ramifications. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

@theDudesmummy

I had not heard about Fox Fallon before, that is horrific. I mean the Thomas thing is just pure cheating, but he is not specifically physically endangering other competitors by his cheating.

Let me introduce you to Alana McLaughlin—ex Special Forces.

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/mma/transgender-fighter-wins-mma-debut-24960681

@Nnique

Wasn’t a female fighter somewhere not even told that she was in fact actually fighting a male? I’m quite sure I remember that happening - in which case she could not have consented to the potential ramifications. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

I think that's right. It was the woman who had her skull fractured by Fallon Fox I think.

@nolongersurprised

That said, I also think that Caster Semenya was treated appallingly

Caster has XY chromosomes and knew this in late teens, after benefitting from a male puberty. Caster’s DSD means they are androgen sensitive and respond to testosterone at puberty.

Yet gaslit everyone with, “I’m a biological woman with naturally high testosterone”. With that testosterone coming from internal testes.

I used to have sympathy but I don’t now. I’m at the point where any even partially virilised male should fuck right out of female sport.

Trying to shoehorn XY DSD athletes who are androgen sensitive into women’s sports with testosterone suppression rules are how the door was opened to the likes of Lia in the first place.

I agree, Caster, their scouts and coaches, their sporting regulatory body, team doctors, funding streams etc etc all knew that Caster’s physiology was outside the norm for female athletes long before it was acknowledged publicly. Elite international sport is a very sophisticated machine, it is not a case of a naive young person turning up at a meet and borrowing a second hand pair of spikes before breaking records. An athlete on the international circuit has been examined and assessed for years and every little detail of their physical development recorded and analysed . To believe that Caster was unaware of their physiology is disingenuous.

@Malariahilaria

There are two sexes That swimmer is man.

Totally correct but it won't suit the agenda!

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

A phobia is an irrational fear. I am not scared of trans people, irrational or otherwise.

I am also not "cis". That is insulting.

Sport should be based on sex. Alyson Felix is the most decorated female Olympian of all time (I believe). She could be beaten by at least the top 100 male sprinters in the world. How would that be fair? Sport should be based on sex, not identified gender.

I don't know how transwomen feel any sense of achievement when they beat women. Lia might be winning things but I wonder how Lia really feels inside.

And Fox Fallon is a dangerous arsehole and needs locking up for their threats and violence towards women.

And yes, my understanding is also that Caster Semenya lives as a man away from the athletics track.

Yes quite. I’m not frightened either. I am extremely angry at attempts to destroy women’s and girls’ very hard won rights and protections (to which we’re absolutely entitled, legally and morally).

Gah, losing faith, not face. Typing with migraine.

All this talk about testosterone levels but it seems they don't even have to do that anymore.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/nov/16/trans-women-should-not-have-to-reduce-testosterone-say-new-ioc-guidelines

So we have the position where males who have made no meaningful moves to transition, no surgery, no reduction in testosterone can compete in female sport just by declaring themselves a woman.

If you were a mediocre male who wanted some money and fame then what's stopping you? Easy wins.

@Fairislefandango

Some of the posts on here are hateful and transphobic (I'm not talking about the ones saying transwomen shouldn't compete against cis women BTW, but the ones who try to insist transwomen are not women).

That transwomen are not women is a straightforward fact which shouldn't even need to be insisted on. What is the definition of a woman? Because 'anyone who feels like one' isn't a definition. On that basis, if I (a 50yo white woman) feel like a 6yo Chinese boy, then that's what I am, right? Or if I feel like an elderly three-legged labrador, I'm one of those?

If transwomen literally are women, then how do we even know whom to exclude from competing against women? Because we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. And if you say 'Well no, they aren't literally women', then what on earth even is a 'non-literal' woman?

You can identify as a cat at Bristol uni so I don’t see why not

[quote heathspeedwell]Just to be clear about Caster Semenya, it would be easy to get the impression from a lot of our media that Semenya is a woman, but he has a difference of sexual development that only affects male people.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Semenya has identified as male for most of his life (except on the race track). Certainly he has known he was male since he was 18 when tests confirmed this, but his voice breaking at puberty probably gave him a big clue.

Notice how in this interview he describes women as 'them' not 'us'.

[/quote] Woah, is insane. I knew transphobia existed but wow! This person isn't even trans!!

Caster Semenya is intersex, was assigned female at birth, has always identified as female. She is not male and has never been male. Her sex is intersex and her gender is female. Yes, because she is intersex, she has male characteristics. This does not make her a man in any shape or form. She is not a transwoman as she has always been female.

To call Caster Semenya 'he' based on your own prejudice is disgusting.