Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

LT competed in the male swimming team before switching to the women’s team.

Thomas has had no surgery, no treatment, just filled in the self-ID form.

Having not won anything in the male team, Thomas has now got a lot of £££ prizes.

The female winners in the championships, who came second, have said 0.

ToCaden Sat 19-Mar-22 10:02:59
Some of the posts on here are hateful and transphobic (I'm not talking about the ones saying transwomen shouldn't compete against cis women BTW, but the ones who try to insist transwomen are not women).

But transwomen arent biological women are they?

@Waitwhat23

'The rule, which applies to IAAF-sanctioned international competitions, requires that they maintain serum testosterone levels below 5 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L) for at least six months prior to competition. Most females have testosterone levels ranging from 1.12 to 1.79 nmol/L while the normal adult male range is 7.7 -- 29.4 nmol/L.'

Even if a male reduces their testosterone level down to the 'acceptable' level to compete in women's sports, it's still massively, massively higher than the levels in a woman's body. If women tried to dope to the same 'acceptable' level, they would experience horrendous health issues (as detailed in my last post).

And that's not even getting into male's larger bodies, bigger lung capacity, muscle and fat distribution etc which are not significantly effected by taking hormones.

And that doesn't take into account the effects the testosterone has had on the trans woman's body before transitioning. They've developed a male sex body. No dressing in anyway due to some random idea of social construct of what gender is will change that. Not even reducing the testosterone to acceptable levels - which remain higher than females levels anyway - will change that or reverse that.

Sport is a tough gig. I see it through my sons training. Some of the athletes train much harder than others and yet remain slower. Bodies have a massive play in how well you achieve and to what level. Muscle twitch fibres for a start. You see it when you see the builds of the sprinters compared to long distance athletes.

To completely wipe away the chances of female sex woman to win medals by allowing someone to compete under a socially constructed idea of gender makes the years of training for woman completely pointless. It wipes away their inclination to even start training at elevate sport at a young age. Why would a 12/13yo girl enter 5 years of hard training to know that when they reach the top a male who has failed at male youth elite sport can simply claim to be transgender and switch to woman's sport and beat them.

The effects of this are much more far reaching than at high level. It'll filter down to grass root sports eventually.

@Eyesofdisarray 3 years ago there would have been lots of posts like Caden's. And lots telling us to "be kind". Keep the faith, things are changing.

LT competed in the male swimming team before switching to the women’s team.

My favourite little factoid is that after switching, he decided to go to both the men's and women's teams' annual college-funded dinner bash.

There's validation, and then there's free food and drink...

To completely wipe away the chances of female sex woman to win medals by allowing someone to compete under a socially constructed idea of gender makes the years of training for woman completely pointless

This needed emphasising I think.

@NaiceHamAndHugs

If you’ve got a penis you’re male. Come back when it’s gone.

Exactly!

I read the story and I struggle with this one a bit.

It does seem unfair. There's a reason men's and women's sports are separated. In nearly all fields, there's no reason why transwomen can't be treated exactly the same as ciswomen and I think that's how it should be. But in a limited number of fields, we have to recognise the differences and these elite sports is one of them.

That said, I also think that Caster Semenya was treated appallingly and she was humiliated publicly (I know she's not trans but similar complaints were made about her). So it's a fine balance.

It is a bit harsh on the trans athletes, i can see that, but I still don't think it's fair fror them to compete in this way.

@HoveringDonkeyofKnock

If trans women are women, how do we identify the exceptions?

As the law says re sport, where there are issues of fairness or safety. A proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

It’s for society and the process of law etc to decide what is proportionate and legitimate.

And where are there issues of fairness and safety? How do you identify those?

You know it and we know you know it. Why
the mealy mouthed hedging? If you recognise there is an issue, you must know what it is. Spit it out. What is it?

@SigourneyHoward

Wow I've not seen a reversal off the naughty step before. Thanks *@ImaniMumsnet*

I think little things like this show the tide is beginning to change. The more people who talk about this and see the unjust in men competing in womens sports, taking their safe spaces etc, the better.

So trans women are women and women are cis women. So it’s women and cis women. We are now a subset of a woman? We’ve had our own word stolen right out from under our noses.

Yeah, fuck right off with that.

The other thing I don’t understand is how this transgender swimmer or the transgender mma fighter mentioned earlier in the thread feel any sense of achievement or pride when they win. Is it about money? Notoriety? Because it surely can’t be about the love of the sport or the desire to strive to be the best.
It’s like, how great do I feel when I beat my husband at table tennis? Pretty darn good. But when I thrash my dc? A bit mean.

Having not won anything in the male team, Thomas has now got a lot of £££ prizes

This is a huge thing, not only prize money but funding. Funding is allocated on results. Don’t place, don’t get funding. Which means you have to work to pay bills, which means less time for training.

My favourite little factoid is that after switching, he decided to go to both the men's and women's teams' annual college-funded dinner bash.

Of course

@tkwal

Should all professional/elite sports people have genetic testing ? Genuinely curious. Is it ever fair to say testosterone levels at an acceptable level for 3 years mean you would be competing from an equal baseline ? If so can cis female competitors take testosterone supplements to take them up to that level? Would they want to ? If there is no advantage for trans women in competition why aren't we seeing more trans men competing or at least attempting to ?

The testosterone levels is a bit of a smoke and mirrors issue for transwomen athletes. First of all the levels of testosterone that are seen as acceptable for transwomen are about 5 times higher than the limits set for female athletes with naturally occurring testosterone. Secondly the physical advantages that transwomen have are not always related to testosterone, they are largely physiological so for example height, bone length, heart and lung size, pelvic floor shape, muscle twitch response, none of these are altered by reducing testosterone levels. Transwomen always retain these advantages no matter how they talk about how they lose muscle. They also don’t have to deal with other sporting disadvantages that women have like fluctuating hormones and fluid retention during their menstrual cycle and periods or pregnancy disrupting training!

Transmen will never go through male puberty, so the physical advantages male athletes possess (see above) will never be available to them. Their muscle mass and height (not to mention female pelvic development) will always put them at a disadvantage. Imagine a 15 year old boy competing against grown men, that is what they would be facing.

If female competitors take testosterone it is an illegal drug so they would be banned from their sport even if the testosterone they took still puts their levels below the acceptable levels deemed acceptable for transwomen athletes.

If transwomen continue to cheat by identifying as women then sadly yes, I think genetic testing will have to become the norm, and to make it fair ( for transwomen!) it will probably have to be for all elite athletes. But it won’t happen for a few years as some sports bodies will fight against it, and by that time the cynic in me says that the unachievable records set in female sports by transwomen will make many sports unattractive to female athletes. Why spend years of your life training if you know you will never be a National, international or Olympic champion, why put in hours perfecting your skill if you know you have lost the race at the starting blocks?

Transwomen in female sports are killing female sport. They should be ashamed, as should their coaches and regulatory sporting bodies.

@Wedonttalkaboutrats

The other thing I don’t understand is how this transgender swimmer or the transgender mma fighter mentioned earlier in the thread feel any sense of achievement or pride when they win. Is it about money? Notoriety? Because it surely can’t be about the love of the sport or the desire to strive to be the best. It’s like, how great do I feel when I beat my husband at table tennis? Pretty darn good. But when I thrash my dc? A bit mean.

It's about appropriation and mass gaslighting.

Kindly stop using the c** term. Many women here reject the term entirely and do not consent to its use. We do not hold to the ideology behind it and we absolutely do not accept it, given that we are not a subset. We are women, of the female sex. Very straightforward, very simple. MN has agreed that it’s an offensive term and will delete. Stop it. No prefix is necessary - we are, in fact, discussing women; women is the term to be used.

there's no reason why transwomen can't be treated exactly the same as ciswomen and I think that's how it should be

Why?

@Snoodsy

So trans women are women and women are cis women. So it’s women and cis women. We are now a subset of a woman? We’ve had our own word stolen right out from under our noses.

Yeah, fuck right off with that.

You could easily say the same about men when needed. transmen and cismen.

sometimes you need to make a distinction and this is a clear way to do it. The vast majority of the time, men or women suffices.

@Wedonttalkaboutrats

The other thing I don’t understand is how this transgender swimmer or the transgender mma fighter mentioned earlier in the thread feel any sense of achievement or pride when they win. Is it about money? Notoriety? Because it surely can’t be about the love of the sport or the desire to strive to be the best. It’s like, how great do I feel when I beat my husband at table tennis? Pretty darn good. But when I thrash my dc? A bit mean.

No. It is all entitlement. They feel entitled to win. Women are nothing to them. They dont matter. Women dont count.

We had this year's ago on mumsnet with the cheating misogynistic mediocre male cyclist with a doctorate in lying. This fight isnt new. The misogyny and entitlement isnt new. Nobody else matters.

sometimes you need to make a distinction and this is a clear way to do it. The vast majority of the time, men or women suffices.

Men or women are always sufficient descriptions. The only distinction needed is the addition of Trans.

That said, I also think that Caster Semenya was treated appallingly

Caster has XY chromosomes and knew this in late teens, after benefitting from a male puberty. Caster’s DSD means they are androgen sensitive and respond to testosterone at puberty.

Yet gaslit everyone with, “I’m a biological woman with naturally high testosterone”. With that testosterone coming from internal testes.

I used to have sympathy but I don’t now. I’m at the point where any even partially virilised male should fuck right out of female sport.

Trying to shoehorn XY DSD athletes who are androgen sensitive into women’s sports with testosterone suppression rules are how the door was opened to the likes of Lia in the first place.

I also believe cis women with very high testosterone (much higher than other cis women through supplementation or other means) also may have an unfair advantage.

Women that have naturally high testosterone do not have either the benefit of male puberty and 'male' levels of testosterone, nor do they have (unless they may have cancer or very significant health issues) testosterone levels as high as the minimums set generally for some male sports which is 10nmol/L . There may be issues with sports using 5 mol/L but it seems accepted that

Most testosterone values in PCOS will be ≤150 ng/dL (≤5.2 nmol/L).

Testosterone values of ≥200 ng/dL (≥6.9 nmol/L) warrant consideration of an ovarian or adrenal tumor.18

This is from the link below

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069067/ Titled 'Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome: Diagnosis and Management' by Sheehan. It is dated 2004 and maybe there is a more up to date one but this sits in line with what I have seen discussed by those evaluating the sports decisions.

Therefore it is going to be very rare that a female competitor would have that problem. Can I ask what females you are referring to?

Because if you are talking about athletes with differences of sex development, even though many media outlets have to report them as 'female' they are in reality, male with medical conditions. There are several of these competing currently in different sports and there are many discussions being had that they are to be excluded from sports or that they need to reduce their testosterone below 5nmol/L.

However, please do not make the mistake that these are 'females with naturally high testosterone'. They are male with tests and have differences of sex development which has meant their bodies have developed enough of the advantages of being male to be world champions in female sport.

And they should not be used as comparators here and their bodies should not be politicised to score points.

And of course, those women who are taking testosterone are banned from sport because it is a well known sports performance enhancer. If they are transitioned females, they may be able to compete with males if that sport allows that (safety etc).

It is always interesting though, because most sports would allow that person to compete, but they simply cannot beat males who have gone through puberty in most sports. That is why you do not hear of 'transmen' winning their events.