Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

@tkwal

Should all professional/elite sports people have genetic testing ? Genuinely curious. Is it ever fair to say testosterone levels at an acceptable level for 3 years mean you would be competing from an equal baseline ? If so can cis female competitors take testosterone supplements to take them up to that level? Would they want to ? If there is no advantage for trans women in competition why aren't we seeing more trans men competing or at least attempting to ?

Mens sport is open. So women can compete, trans men can compete as men.

Thomas needs to hear the word "no" a bit more often.

It's outrageously unfair. I wonder if the people arguing in defence of this realise how much harm they are doing to trans acceptance?

And as for the bullshit about there being more than two sexes?! 🤔 Even if there were more than two sexes how does that justify someone who is unambiguously male competing in the female category?

Women in East Germany (and other places) did take testosterone to 'improve performance'. This is what happened to them -

Forgotten victims of East German doping take their battle to court | Athletics | The Guardian" amp.theguardian.com/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3

"Health consequences of PEDs continue to plague ex-East German athletes - Global Sport Matters" globalsportmatters.com/health/2019/11/07/ex-east-german-athletes-struggle-with-health-problems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking/

boysvswomen.com/?fbclid=IwAR2s1izxSCo3TxjnbPLh54-wXZyKbVo-nTolCMK3AU7WjDqUpt9hxglK-DA#/

This website compares performance statistics of teenage boys against high performing women athletes.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

She’s going to get a backlash from it. It also opens the door for more trans people to support women surely?

I'm not saying C.Jenner shouldn't speak out. I'm saying I am not going to fawn over them considering it's a highly hypocritical move as they robbed a woman of an award by accepting it.

People need to be free to discuss this without having transphobia chucked at them.
Well yes. I think you'll find nobody sane would be calling CJ transphobia.

You do realise you are setting such a low bar for them precisely because of their sex?

I’m not fawning over her.

I’ve just said it’s good someone high profile who is trans is speaking out in support of womens sports, that’s all.

This isn't inclusion. This is exclusion of females from their own sport. The obvious end point is all medals and team spots being taken by transwomen as females will rarely if ever be able to win.

Even Caitlyn Jenner disagrees with TW competing against women in sport. As an ex professional sports person her view should be respected.

Why not for curiosities sake? I also believe cis women with very high testosterone (much higher than other cis women through supplementation or other means) also may have an unfair advantage

That’s why there was a limit, which got raised.

Thanks MN for reinstating this on AIBU. It's where it belongs. Not having a poll facility does not mean that it doesn't belong here. AIBU existed for years without a poll facility and I actually preferred it. It makes you read the arguments rather than just look at the headline 'result'.

While I'm here, I can't understand why there are some women on the swimming team and in Lia's university generally, who support them being a valid member of the women's swim team. I can only imagine that they are trying to be 'nice', or maybe are friends of Lia and are prioritising this friendship, or that the risk of rationally viewing and admitting that there is an element of 'unfairness' would put them at risk of being ostracised by their peer group as a transphobe/anti-abortionist/religious fundamentalist/right-wing white supremacist/anti-infersectional feminist etc...
And they might be excluded from all the cool events at uni and even some lectures, and then fail their exams, have their future job prospects diminished, suffer poor mental-health etc ...

They surely don't look at Lia and then look at their team mates and think that Lia's feelings trump everything else in the entire world do they? Do they??

I.Don't.Believe.Anyone.Thinks.This.Is.Fair.

So WTF is going on (apart from giving a huge amount of ammunition to people who ARE genuinely transphobic, homophobic, misogynistic, racist etc...) and making the lives of those people who are trying to make adjustments to their presentation to cope with their gender dysphoria, a whole lot more difficult. Imagine having to defend this nonsense all the time. It must be so bloody frustrating.

They surely don't look at Lia and then look at their team mates and think that Lia's feelings trump everything else in the entire world do they? Do they??

Steady on. Lia's feelings only trump all women in the entire world.

I can't understand why there are some women on the swimming team and in Lia's university generally, who support them being a valid member of the women's swim team. I can only imagine that they are trying to be 'nice'

I think it's more that their scholarships would be threatened if they say anything

@Boredoutmymind

your wrong saying only 2 sexes can be born. do some research .

some women are stronger, taller than some men and other women. should these women not be allowed to compete?
transmen can compete with cis men in sports.
so transwomen can compete with cis women in sports.
should we have weight and height classes in all sports?
Where does it end?

too much transphobia on here.

U R bonkers

I can believe that transwomen are women

Given this, what's your definition of women?

I agree OP. I do t think it is transphobic to say someone born male should not compete in women's sport.

I'm sure there would be outrage if this situation was reversed and trans men was beating DNA men.

I'm sure someone will DNA is a human concept but so is being trans. Or identifying as a any gender.

DNA is a load of bollocks as a human concept so that can span all human concepts clearly.

Such a shame that lifetime of science comes to this. Theres no sex therefore there is no sexism, there is no sexes therefore there is no transphobia surely?

@Octomingo

I have been taller than most men all my life. I have broad shoulders and large feet. This has not made me better than most women at sport.

Besides, men are BUILT differently.

Their pelvises are wrong.
Their spines are different.
They have more hand strength.
Their feet are a different shape.
Their knees are in a different position.

Testosterone is the icing on the cake, but the cake is already in the oven by puberty.

Testerone increases for women in menopause, but they don't suddenly become elite athletes.

This. I'm 5'10" and have decent lower body strength, big feet and reasonably big hands. However, my 14 year old son who is 4 inches shorter and half my weight has a stronger grip and enough upper body strength to overpower me. My size does make me feel less vulnerable to men, but in reality I'm still very much the weaker sex (as much as this pisses me off!).

We can push for equality while still recognising inherent biological differences. Yes, I could do anything a man can do, but there are some things I will never be able to do as well as man. Accepting that doesn't make me a bad feminist, just a realist. If we don't accept sex differences, we can't protect women.

'The rule, which applies to IAAF-sanctioned international competitions, requires that they maintain serum testosterone levels below 5 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L) for at least six months prior to competition. Most females have testosterone levels ranging from 1.12 to 1.79 nmol/L while the normal adult male range is 7.7 -- 29.4 nmol/L.'

Even if a male reduces their testosterone level down to the 'acceptable' level to compete in women's sports, it's still massively, massively higher than the levels in a woman's body. If women tried to dope to the same 'acceptable' level, they would experience horrendous health issues (as detailed in my last post).

And that's not even getting into male's larger bodies, bigger lung capacity, muscle and fat distribution etc which are not significantly effected by taking hormones.

Kellie-Jay Keen is in USA at the moment and has been watching and videoing this man swimming. The sound quality is poor, but her videos are well worth watching.
I am not sure if posting a link would get this post deleted, but she is easily found by googling.

Posts like to caden's make me begin to lose faith in humanity

1. It's not just about testosterone levels
2. Please don't use 'cis' - many women find it offensive
3. It's not transphobia, no-one is being 'abusive' here- abuse seems to come one way.
4. No 'cis' please
5. You can believe what the heck you want but you cannot expect others to do the same
6. No 'cis' thanks

I'm still amazed at the people defending this. Iff the rules allowed Lia to compete in the Paralympics when there's just as clearly an unfair advantage as in this situation would you still be defending him? Or would you think it selfish and morally wrong?

Why is it different if it's women's sports?Should there be a just in that sentence? It's JUST women's sports. They don't matter.

👍@Octomingo

In that video she is addressed by a transman who refers to Lia Thomas as "he".

Even the gender ideologues, the practicing genderists, the believers of TWAW, cannot keep the lies going.