Babies like zombies at nursery

[BlueTreeCat]

I’m trying to decide between childminder and nursery for my LO at the mo. At the nurseries I’ve visited all the babies just seem to be sat there all listless and blank looking. No smiling, no laughing, just sat staring, or crying. Is this normal for nurseries or have I just visited some poor ones? What’s been your experience? I’m talking babies 12 months and younger here. It’s not so bad with the older ones I don’t think, from what I’ve seen.

We visited 3.

One of them was as you describe. I got a really bad feeling about it.

The 2nd one, all the children, including the babies were so happy in every room! The nursery itself was quite run down but you could feel the warmth of the staff and the happiness of the kids.

The 3rd one had fabulous facilities. And it was a mixed bag. Better than the first, but the kids didn't seem as happy as the 2nd. The facilities were spectacular though. And I loved everything they had to offer.

But in the end we went with nursery number 2 because I think that when my DC is at nursery, it's the quality of the interaction with staff that matters the most, not the surroundings. I want their view of the world to be positive and that comes from being in a positive environment.

We'll see in time if my decision was the right one!

just choose a childminder - that’s clearly what you’re goading for.

FWIW I’ve never met a childminder I would trust with my children. And far too many people have stress over what to do when the CM is off sick/on holiday - not an issue in a good quality nursery.

@BlueTreeCat

I’m trying to decide between childminder and nursery for my LO at the mo. At the nurseries I’ve visited all the babies just seem to be sat there all listless and blank looking. No smiling, no laughing, just sat staring, or crying. Is this normal for nurseries or have I just visited some poor ones? What’s been your experience? I’m talking babies 12 months and younger here. It’s not so bad with the older ones I don’t think, from what I’ve seen.

Not normal at all!

We looked round several nurseries, some of which we didn't like, but I never saw anything like this.

DD started nursery at 14/15 months (I can't remember) and was one of the older ones in the baby room. For the few months before she moved up to the other room, occasionally there would be a baby that couldn't walk or crawl/cruise, and they'd generally be one-to-one with someone being picked up or held or helped to do things unless they were napping. The others just obviously moved under their own steam. Babies that age do not sit still voluntarily!

We viewed some nurseries like this, our nursery the babies have the best time. It has a 1 to 2 ratio in the baby room and they are outside for 95% of the day. They set up huge amounts of messy play and outside exploration. They sleep in old silver cross pranks that are pushed round the grounds. Our daughter has a really great bond with her key worker.

You just need to find the right place!

This is due is do emotive. There is research out there - lots of it. Here is a blog on it

criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4

Basically number of adults to children matter.

Typos…. Such an emotive issue

This is precisely why I used a childminder rather than a nursery.

In a previous profession I was in every single nursery in my city carrying out inspections for registration. Because I wasn’t coming in as a parent the staff had no reason to be on “best behaviour” or putting in a performance while I was there.
Don’t get me wrong there was no abuse or anything like that, but there was a distinct lack of engagement with children in every single one, both local authority and private

Not my experience of nurseries. We’ve used a small local nursery for both children and found them to be extremely nurturing and offering lots of different activities. They go outdoors twice per day either a walk in the buggies, in the small baby garden or the larger garden.

As a PP said, I’ve never met a childminder I would trust with my child - the babies who go to the ones I see locally appear to spend most of their day in the buggy doing school/nursery drop off and pick up for the various other children in the cm’s care.

@BeardyButton

This is due is do emotive. There is research out there - lots of it. Here is a blog on it

criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4

Basically number of adults to children matter.

Do you have any sources for the UK?

(Btw I absolutely agree ratios matter, but in the UK they're pretty strictly policed already.)

I looked round 4 nurseries and in one the babies and toddlers were like zombies and not interacting with the staff or each other. Ruled out that one quickly but in the other three all the kids looked stimulated and were interacting. It's not normal or shouldn't be!

If you can find a brilliant childminder that would be fantastic OP (I know a couple of really experienced, amazing ones), but I'd rather a fantastic nursery than a crap childminder (I know a couple of them too). Group care is less good for babies, much better for over 3's but it just depends if you can find a really good childminder with availability.

www.theguardian.com/society/2005/oct/02/childrensservices.familyandrelationships#:~:text=It%20found%20babies%20and%20toddlers,those%20cared%20for%20by%20mothers.

As far as I’m aware similar findings have been replicated internationally. The research is v emotive. I’m guessing it’s getting tougher to get ethical approval for studies like this. I think (it’s been a while since I reviewed the lit) that there was a lot of research in east Germany on this.

The thing is - I don’t think the conditions in UK now are so different to international studies to make the studies inapplicable.

Would much prefer a nursery. The ones you’ve visited sound awful and if you have real concerns I would definitely report. The ones I saw were ‘off the cuff’ as in they just said pop along (so no pretences as in putting in a show). I think they can give so much more than I could in terms of interaction and varied play.

Definitely not normal. When I go to pick up my middle child at 1pm on a Friday, the baby room is usually really quiet as they’re all sleeping on their little floor mats (which is the cutest thing ever) but the toddler room is still full of life. And whenever I pick up at 5pm or do morning drop off it’s always lively. Lots of the toddlers tend to race to the door of the baby room (where my son still is) to open the door for me which is ever so sweet. My eldests nursery was never like this either, always noisy and bustling with lots of laughing.

@BeardyButton

As far as I’m aware similar findings have been replicated internationally. The research is v emotive. I’m guessing it’s getting tougher to get ethical approval for studies like this. I think (it’s been a while since I reviewed the lit) that there was a lot of research in east Germany on this.

The thing is - I don’t think the conditions in UK now are so different to international studies to make the studies inapplicable.

Oh, interesting. I had the impression from friends in the US (in particular) that the rules about ratios were far less strict.

I suppose it will always be very hard to get approval to study neglect, but it surprises me there are such big ethical issues otherwise.

to be honest OP - and why not be honest online! - I also felt uncomfortable visiting the baby rooms in a couple of nurseries - I thought the young staff looked slightly bored - not their fault - the reality is that babies are designed by evolution to be carried around all day while mum does normal chores/ cooks etc -

The idea of sitting and doing nothing but look after a 5/ 6 month old all day -is - pretty F-ing dull as I know myself from mat leave - I think most mums find the first year hard - and it's natural it's hard to look after them in the smaller space of a nursery.

Think of how most mums look after a baby - they go for long walks in the buggy to pass the time or they meet with friends for coffees - yet it seemed a bit unnatrual to me that in a baby room the nursery staff will literally just be looking after and entertaining the babies - though of course the babies probably love all the interaction with each other

Research has shown that for under 2s it is better to have a single caregiver - now, that does not mean nursery is 'bad' or that lots of babies won't be happy there - but for me, as I was leaving mine pretty young - 5/ 6 months - I chose a childminder because I wanted them to form a one to one relationship with one adult

I also felt it more natural that the childminder had older toddlers to look after and it was more like a busy family atmosphere

It's so personal though - you just have to go with your instinct.

I know what you mean OP. I’ve not actually visited any other nurseries due to the pandemic and not being allowed but my little ones nursery is not great tbh…she frequently wets herself despite rarely having accidents at home, the other day it was poo and no one even noticed. When I go to collect her the other children approach me a try to talk to me through the gate, one told me “I want my mummy” today 😢 I feel like they’re asking for my help to escape…I am an ex childminder and none of my mindees never ever felt like that. They rarely had accidents and were loved like one of the family…it’s so hard to know because there are amazing childminders and some fake, pull the wool over your eyes types. Pick one who doesn’t care about numbers who’d be happy with just a few rather than 10 of them.

That is definitely not normal. My son had some additional needs due to medical issues so I was in the nursery a few times to give the staff training. Staff in the baby room were wonderful with the babies - they were always playing with them or giving them cuddles. My son had trouble napping and often when I’d call I’d be told oh he’s asleep in Sophie’s arms because he wouldn’t nap in the cot. We also got photos of their activities - feeding the ducks at the park, mrssy play, painting…. Our nursery also has a sensory room which my son loved when he was little.

@BrutusMcDogface

It sounds like the babies are zoning out due to lack of interaction. I looked at one nursery that had them stuffed into bumbos doing much the same; I ran a mile.

As a mother to grown up DC I had no idea what a Bumbo was and had to google. It looks like a type of potty, but more worryingly I saw this report

blog.dinopt.com/bumbo-is-a-no-go/

My DD works in early years and comes home full of the tales of the lovely time the babies have had, although she works with 2 and over now, she has worked in a nursery with a baby room. It sounds like the ones you viewed were hopefully rare. I wish you luck with finding a happy place for your little one :)

I wouldn’t personally choose a nursery for a baby under one if I had the option of a childminder. I think babies do better in a smaller home setting in general. Once they are a year to 18 months then I think nurseries can be great.

Absolutely not normal. My boy goes to nursery and has a blast. They do loads with him. Sometimes I worry about how many kids are in there but they are well within the ratios and I guess it's good for his social skills. He has been going since 11 months and goes in quite happily.

I was going to suggest you trust your instincts. But @BeardyButton’s Critical Science link says we shouldn’t trust our instincts since we are poor at evaluating daycare with most parents claiming their nurseries are fantastic when they are objectively not!

So who knows! But this particular nursery sounds really sad.

@JudgeRindersMinder

This is precisely why I used a childminder rather than a nursery.

In a previous profession I was in every single nursery in my city carrying out inspections for registration. Because I wasn’t coming in as a parent the staff had no reason to be on “best behaviour” or putting in a performance while I was there.
Don’t get me wrong there was no abuse or anything like that, but there was a distinct lack of engagement with children in every single one, both local authority and private

That's interesting and also incredibly scary. But why does that mean for you that a childminder is the way forward?

Childminders don't have CCTV, there's no manager over-seeing everyone, there's no colleagues there to spot if someone isn't doing their job, there's no (or not many) other parents to compare notes with (you know how it is when you're waiting at pick up and you get chatting - you hear things).

Genuinely - not being funny but with a childminder how do you satisfy yourself that when you leave your kid that person is doing everything they say they are? That was my fear when deciding between a childminder and a nursery and I really wrestled with it. I still am! So keen to here your tale xx