To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

Eat local and seasonal foods.
That's the answer. It reduces food miles and land is used to produce food with the best yield.

It’s not the answer to animal exploitation and slaughter.

Logically halving your meat consumption will provide half the benefits. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - and I say this as a vegetarian of over 20 years.

If I were to eat meat again I'd buy from my local farmer's market where you can actually speak to the people who've reared the animal in question - and known it, as they like to say, when it was "on the hoof". If you don't want to cut it out altogether, less meat of a higher quality is the way to go.

The biggest benefit will be if everyone makes a moderate change.

In populations where the norm is to eat meat 6 days a week (and many might eat more than that, eating meat every single day, possibly more than once) everyone cutting down to 3 days a week will reduce overall consumption by 50%.

If theyall cut down to one day a week, that reduces overall consumption by nearly 85%.

Further reductions will also be achieved by reducing the amount of meat in any particular meal. So don't eat meals that include an entire chicken breast or similarly sized steak or chop per person, but have this amount of meat between 2-4 people and include pulses or eggs, as well as vegetables and grains to make it into a filling meal.

That would all reduce overall meat consumption by well over 90% and have a far bigger benefit than 5-10% of people cutting out meat consumption completely, while others continue to eat it most days, which is where we probably are currently in countries like the UK or US.

Forgot to say that then there would be far less demand, which would allow less intensive farming and have a much lower impact on the environment.

@BarbaraofSeville

The biggest benefit will be if everyone makes a moderate change.

In populations where the norm is to eat meat 6 days a week (and many might eat more than that, eating meat every single day, possibly more than once) everyone cutting down to 3 days a week will reduce overall consumption by 50%.

If theyall cut down to one day a week, that reduces overall consumption by nearly 85%.

Further reductions will also be achieved by reducing the amount of meat in any particular meal. So don't eat meals that include an entire chicken breast or similarly sized steak or chop per person, but have this amount of meat between 2-4 people and include pulses or eggs, as well as vegetables and grains to make it into a filling meal.

That would all reduce overall meat consumption by well over 90% and have a far bigger benefit than 5-10% of people cutting out meat consumption completely, while others continue to eat it most days, which is where we probably are currently in countries like the UK or US.

Completely agree.

Also, everyone wants a label. I’m not vegan, and I’m not veggie, but I don’t eat much meat. Mostly due to cost at the moment, but usually for welfare reasons. Maybe two or three times a week as a rule. My kiddo hardly eats meat at all. When I did eat it it was locally farmed by traditional methods, not industrial farming (which I agree is much more of an issue) and I think this is better than buying ‘plant based’ meat subs in every possible way. We drink a lot milk (which used to be local etc etc) and eggs (which used to be from our hens, but it was a bugger to keep them free range and keep the foxes off them) and small amounts of cheese most days. Its not doable on my current £20 a week shipping budget, but I don’t suppose being vegan is either)

I consist myself to have a plant based diet. Which to me, means MOSTLY plants. But not entirely. It seems to be have been appropriated to mean ‘Vegan processed stuff’.

The fact is that most vegans have better weight management and the few studies suggest that being vegan seems to correlate with better health

I'm not sure that's entirely true. People have lost loads of weight by shifting to a meat only diet. Dropping pounds that were never possible on a carby vegan diet.

The problem with certain statements is you want to verify them, for instance:

India for example is mostly vegetarian across all demographics.
Does "mostly" = 39% self-ID as vegtn and further 42% in some way limit what meats they eat?

The UK and US eat far more meat than most European countries.

I can confirm the USA on that claim, but if you sort the 2017 per capita meat consumption data on Wikipedia, UK comes out about middle for European countries. 80 kg/person, less than Germany, Poland, Belarus, Austria, Portugal, Lithuania, Malta, Czech, Lux... A lot of European countries are only just below, in the 70-79.99 kg/person zone. A country like Norway might be lower only because they eat so much fish. Georgia & Spain (43 kg fish/person) tie for lowest meat consumption, at mere 32 kg/person.

The fact is that most vegans have better weight management and the few studies suggest that being vegan seems to correlate with better health

Not in my experience. Weight yes, but a good whole food diet would do that anyway. I've seen several people make themselves slowly very sick due to deficiencies of stuff not found in a natural non processed vegan diet that he was preaching to his followers, one was even sectioned. I reached out to him before that as I could see what was happening & he was really nasty about my daring to suggest his diet was making him ill & blocked me on everything

I heard he was later diagnosed with PA & put on injections & gave up veganism in favour of being a vegetarian

Casamento Have you just been dropped here from another planet where you’re not aware that ‘cow’ is colloquially used to refer to both male and female cattle? Or do you think your faux naïveté makes you sound superior?

I own a small farm. I am surrounded by farms.

No-one refers to "cow farms". I have never, ever heard the phrase before. If you talked like that around here, the wave of laughter would literally carry on your little gust of superiority so far that you would end up in the sea. Alternatively, you would literally get the cold shoulder. People would think you were an idiot. You don't go to the "cow market" with your "cow", you go to the cattle markets with your stots. Or your heifers.

Newgirls Do you think the 60 million meat eaters in the UK all buy from local farms?!

No, of course I bloody don't. Which is why I'm trying to encourage people to buy more quality high value meat from local suppliers. That was implicit in my post after all.

What agenda is going on here exactly?

Will no-one think of the cow farms?

If people did try to work out what you meant, they would assume you meant dairy farming, and solely dairy farming. Cattle is the word used, because cows are female cattle. I'm sure you know this but I suspect you have some sort of cause going on where use of these phrases is popularised and seen as some sort of badge of identity.

I do sometimes wonder how many vegans who cite the environment as a reason, eat much locally grown veg, especially in winter - not just carrots, potatoes and onions, but cabbage, sprouts, swede, celeriac, parsnips, turnips, etc. - rather than massive food-miles imports such as the more fashionable mange-tout, green beans, mini sweetcorn, etc.

The fact is that most vegans have better weight management and the few studies suggest that being vegan seems to correlate with better health

Is this true? In my purely personal experience of often sporty, "health conscious" social circle, the vegans aren't any more or less struggling with their weight than others, but the vegans I know seem to eat a lot of bad filler foods, such as crisps, chocolate and gallons of peanut butter to fill them up. They seem to be much the same weight as anyone else.

Sure, if you compare vegans with the general population as a whole they might be slimmer, but if you compare them with people who watch their diet and try to eat healthily, I don't believe they are.

My views might be coloured somewhat by knowing a very new, evangelical vegan who liked to tell people on social media how nice and slim and young looking he was, when he was actually emaciated, wrinkled and had noticeably bad teeth! I have vegan friends who don't feel the need to discuss their dietary habits with anyone though.

I'm also surprised to learn that the normal eating habits I was brought up with mean that I come from an entire dynasty of "flexitarians" who eat meat once or twice a fortnight as standard. No cooked breakfasts, takeaways or fry ups here!

Veganism is not the answer to health. A whole foods, Mediterranean diet with small amounts of meat, fish and fermented dairy is probably the best according to many longevity studies. The problem with a vegan diet (other than boring, preachy vegans) is that it's too low in essential nutrients, fatty acids, and protein, and this becomes more evident as we get older. Most people aren't eating nearly enough vegetables to get everything they need from a vegan diet. In terms of health, you are better off eating organic, grass-fed, local meat over fake meat, soya/pea protein-based foods which are higher in salt, sugar, and industrial inflammatory vegetable oils.

I wouldn't use India as the gold standard for health, they have some of the highest rates of diabetes in the world, more than the US and the UK.

All my vegetarian friends carry more weight than I do and are always "tired." At home, we eat a lot of small fish and organic meat once a week. We have vegetarian meals, but I would never raise my son vegetarian or vegan. I was a health-conscious vegetarian for a decade in the 90s and after 10 years started eating fish due to fatigue and anemia.

Of course it isn’t the answer to whatever the question is lol. It’s a cult

Most people aren't eating nearly enough vegetables to get everything they need from a vegan diet.

This is true in the UK, perhaps. Going by this thread, people appear to be eating fake meat instead of vegetables. If you don't like vegetables, don;t go veggie or vegan and just eat less meat. I do like vegetables though and am not anaemic or tired.

The very definition of veganism is eschewing all animal products "for the animals". It is only about the animals, it's not about health.

Being vegan is not the way to health if you eat processed meat substitutes and junk food.

All scientific studies show that a whole food, plant based diet is optimal for health, with minimal oil, salt, meat or dairy.

Fruit, vegetables, beans, legumes and grains are the pinnacle products (if you tolerate them).

People keep equating "vegan" with health which is not what the studies show.

Well I probably have fake meat once or twice a week. The rest of the week is wfpb. How many times a week do meat eaters eat sausages and burgers? Because they are processed too.

People here keep saying "eat local grass fed meat" but how many people actually do this? Or can afford to? Majority of meat comes from factory farms, which are unnatural and unethical.

And again I say, how many of you would be happy if your beloved cats and dogs were treated the same way?

I think the diet that is environmentally ideal must be so different country to country.

Would it actually be possible (long term) to eat a nutritionally complete/balanced vegan diet in the UK without resorting to stuff flown in that's been farmed intensively in and in environmentally damaging way (lots of nut and other alternative milks etc).

As you say, what the land is suitable for in different countries has to be considered.

I dont think "we must all be vegan" is the answer.

I think we rely too much on animal products and its great if we can all reduce. But we dont have to be extreme about it.

NRFT: I've been a vegetarian for 35 years, was vegan for 5 of those

People like yourselves who go mostly plant based are part of the solution, not the problem.

@Briony123

Will nobody think of the bees?!? Veganism is terrible for bees. Intensive monoculture is wrecking huge swathes of the ecosystem around the globe. On a par with those horrific cattle farms with no grass for mile after mile. Our destruction of bees will be our downfall (if Putin doesn't push the button). Eat British; eat organic.

Do you want to know something else that is terrible bees?

Honey production.

Good on your friends for going vegan, OP! I personally agree with the all or nothing approach when it comes to stopping animal cruelty, though I understand that some people may struggle to go from being a meat eater to vegan overnight. I would suggest going vegetarian first and then cutting out animal products one-by-one, then going completely vegan. I do not agree with the 'everything in moderation' argument as an animal will still have to suffer regardless if you eat animal products twice a week or everyday.

I'm not really sure what you mean by veganism being the answer, answer to what exactly? If you mean being the answer to ending cruelty to animals, then yes it is, if everyone went vegan.

Some animals eat other animals, but not ALL animals. Some animals are herbivores, and humans don't need meat to survive. It is not morally justified for humans to eat animals as we can live without it, unlike some animals in the animal kingdom who eat other animals out of necessity and because they do not have a moral compass. Humans mainly eat meat because of the taste and because it's what they've been brought up to do, not because they need it to survive.

It's good that you object to factory farming, OP.

The production of animal products work on a supply and demand basis. If everyone went vegan, less animals would be bred by farmers until eventually there will be no need for farmers to breed animals into production. You say that you don't think that the land used for 'grazing' animals would be suitable for growing fruit and vegetables. Why is that exactly? Would you prefer there to be more slaughterhouses instead because you believe it would be more suitable?

OP, if you're serious about this, I'm not sure if your friends have already suggested this, but I would start by watching some of Earthling Ed's videos on YouTube, as he answers a lot of your questions and the countless arguments against veganism that always comes up. I would also recommend reading his book that came out a few months ago, as he goes more in dept about the meat industry.

Whenever see someone wanting the whole world to be vegan, I see big piles of burning bodies of animals no longer needed and militant vegans dancing around high fiving each other.

Then starvation when crops fail as the planet can't sustain the human race.

@OfstedOffred

I think the diet that is environmentally ideal must be so different country to country.

Would it actually be possible (long term) to eat a nutritionally complete/balanced vegan diet in the UK without resorting to stuff flown in that's been farmed intensively in and in environmentally damaging way (lots of nut and other alternative milks etc).

As you say, what the land is suitable for in different countries has to be considered.

I dont think "we must all be vegan" is the answer.

I think we rely too much on animal products and its great if we can all reduce. But we dont have to be extreme about it.

It must be possible. People survived in all corners of these isles for most of their inhabited history without imported products, even until relatively recent times. Some of my family came from a Scottish islands and records show that they were regularly living into their eighties and even nineties 150 years ago, and they wouldn't have had many food imports then.

Even when I was a teenager and announced to my parents that I was vegetarian, that basically meant porridge or other breakfast cereal, lunch was bread and butter or some spread and dinner was potatoes and mashed turnip or similar. My parents weren't the most imaginative but I think vegetables even then meant seasonal local produce and basically being what people would call vegan now. ie you didn't eat fish or chicken either and it was rigid and you did not have meat when you felt like it. I'm not ancient and it was in the countryside.

I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian now but will once a week or so buy meat from my local farm shop, which is excellent and much closer than Tesco. I don't like fruit but I do like the less exotic vegetables, and I don't even like tea or coffee and I don't feel like I'm missing out, so I suppose there must be more like me.

As for those who feel the need to tell other people how great their eating habits are and post about it on social media as if its some Great New Discovery, its always been the same with people who discover something new in mid life.

EmotionalBusiness You say that you don't think that the land used for 'grazing' animals would be suitable for growing fruit and vegetables. Why is that exactly?

I can't given an exact answer but land for fruit growing needs to be in quite a mild climate with lowish rainfall and done on slopes which attract the sun. Quite a lot of pesticides are required. Certain soil types are better than others. Most of the UK outwith the south of England isn't that great for fruit growing although there are some sheltered spots along the east coast which are further north.

Grass as a grazing crop tends to be grown at a slightly higher altitude and on less premium soils than cereal crops. So there wouldn't be many areas of Britain where you could simply substitute grass for fruit growing as it would be too cold and there wouldn't be enough sunlight.

Vegetables have different requirements depending on what they are. Potatoes for instance only grow in certain soils in certain very favourable conditions as a mass crop, and different types of potato are suited for different areas.

Grass can grow almost anywhere, and since much of Britain is upland, it means that animals such as cattle and sheep (who can graze poorer more upland grasses still) are farmed.

Would you prefer there to be more slaughterhouses instead because you believe it would be more suitable?

Absolutely yes to more local slaughterhouses and improvement of practices. The present system is terrible and designed at producing cheap high quantities of meat. I think one thing thats often overlooked too is the cruelty of transporting animals long distances for slaughter.

I came across a programme about pollution from the 60,000 pigs being reared in central Spain. We have rivers in Wales destroyed by chicken rearing effluent. Then there's stockyards in the US with thousands of head of beef.

It would be great to say stop it all but I doubt very much that grain and veg can provide that much protein.

As it is in many countries the veg requires heating and polytunnels. In the U.K. producers are slashing their production of cucumbers and toms due to gas price - let's no pretend this is solved by people Turing vegan.