To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

@MangyInseam

If veganism was actually the most efficient way to eat, all the animals would do it. And so would all the societies that are on the edge of sustainability.

Instead what you see is that when you have vegetarian groups in traditional societies, they are almost always the elite or well off. The poor eat whatever, and so do the farmers.

The most sustainable farming is mixed. Most western people eat far too much meat to be sustainable, but veganism and vegetarianism isn't all that great in the end either, because it cannot make use of all the synergies of a complete ecosystem.

If you look at industrial farming models, it is true that animal based ones are worse than plant based ones. But the problems with that are that they are both unsustainable; they are both dependent of fossil fuels to a significant degree; and they are also very intertwined so you can't really separate them out anyway.

For sustainability your best bet is to look at the kinds of farms around you that practice sustainable agriculture, and then buy what you can afford from them. You will find their meat products are relatively expensive so chances are you won't eat a ton of them anyway. And you will also be able to feel like their plant products are sustainably produced, or as close to it as possible.

Well put.

I just don't see how a vegan diet would work without massively ramping up the power consumption as we are not the hottest/sunniest of countries. Nor do we have a landscape that allows it to be used exclusively for arable farming.

Nor does a lot of intensive arable farming seem overly environmentally friendly e.g. almond farming and it's ongoing decimation of the bee population.

I'm also at a loss to what people think would actually happen to the various livestock species when they no longer have an economic benefit. Cows. sheep, pigs. chickens as pets/zoo exhibits only? So, a what 99.9% cull globally?

As well as making sure you buy as ethically as you can, I'd be suggesting global population controls. We have a finite resource but do not seem to be taking any steps to control demand.

@gamerchick

Whenever see someone wanting the whole world to be vegan, I see big piles of burning bodies of animals no longer needed and militant vegans dancing around high fiving each other.

Then starvation when crops fail as the planet can't sustain the human race.

The planet manages to sustain 70bn land animals we farm, kill and eat every year. I'm sure we could do just fine.

You can get enough protein from a vegetarian or even vegan diet.

You have to do something about vitamin B12 & maybe iron on animal-product free diets, though

I think the vegan philosophy is to slowly stop breeding domestic animals, it's a long term thing. I don't want a pet-free world myself. I dunno how British vegans reconcile themselves to being dependent on foods pollinated by captive bees -- British veganism seems too absolute to allow that as long term status quo.

Vegans really do have lower BMI... However, my cousin (who is not a British vegan because she went vegan living for political not animal reasons) -- was most disappointed not to lose weight. And she said it took forever to prepare a meal. Maybe she prevented weight gain, though.

I am neither vegan nor vegetarian but I don't eat red meat.

I don't think the plant-based processed substitutes are good for you (much like sweeteners in drinks to avoid sugar) and I don't think it's good for the planet to fly alternatives in from overseas when you could get your eggs or sausages from down the road.

I have been vegetarian for 25 years or so, and think that those who are hugely enthusiastic recent converts to veganism are missing the point somewhat I agree.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

I do sometimes wonder how many vegans who cite the environment as a reason, eat much locally grown veg, especially in winter - not just carrots, potatoes and onions, but cabbage, sprouts, swede, celeriac, parsnips, turnips, etc. - rather than massive food-miles imports such as the more fashionable mange-tout, green beans, mini sweetcorn, etc.

That’s true of meat eaters as well?

@berlinbabylon

I am neither vegan nor vegetarian but I don't eat red meat.

I don't think the plant-based processed substitutes are good for you (much like sweeteners in drinks to avoid sugar) and I don't think it's good for the planet to fly alternatives in from overseas when you could get your eggs or sausages from down the road.

I have been vegetarian for 25 years or so, and think that those who are hugely enthusiastic recent converts to veganism are missing the point somewhat I agree.

Meat eaters eat processed foods too!

Chicken nuggets, ham, sausages, bacon, meat pies, burgers etc. and in far higher quantities than veggie. Just look in any supermarket.

A meat diet doesn’t equate with eco, low carbon, natural etc

The UK imports 50% of its meat. Most are not shopping local however much the meat farmers on here like to peddle that

@Newgirls totally agree! An alien reading this thread to learn about Earth eating habits would think that only vegetarians/vegans eat processed foods or food flown from overseas, while meat-eaters always stick to locally sourced food and cook every meal from scratch 🤔

[quote 2orangey]@Newgirls totally agree! An alien reading this thread to learn about Earth eating habits would think that only vegetarians/vegans eat processed foods or food flown from overseas, while meat-eaters always stick to locally sourced food and cook every meal from scratch 🤔[/quote]
As is always the case with these threads, it's bizarre.

An alien reading this thread to learn about Earth eating habits would think that only vegetarians/vegans eat processed foods or food flown from overseas, while meat-eaters always stick to locally sourced food and cook every meal from scratch

I think it's because when people think of "vegan food" they think of the tiny shelf in the supermarket with the fake meats on, not the fruit and veg aisle. I love the occasional vegan burger or sausages but I certainly don't eat them any more often than I did the meat equivalent so I can't get all that worked up about the processedness.

Two things:

1. Most fertiliser used on arable farms is made from natural gas (yes, the stuff exported by Russia) www.fertilizerseurope.com/fertilizers-in-europe/how-fertilizers-are-made/ Animal manure is used by only a small proportion of (organic) farmers.

1. Someone up thread asked how did people in the UK survive in the past. For ordinary people, their diet was based on (wholemeal) bread and porridge-type wheat dishes and/or oatmeal (depending on region), supplemented by veg (onions, garlic, leeks, cabbage family, carrots etc if lucky (swedes not introduced until 17th/18th cent) and herbs) plus legumes (field peas mentioned by previous poster and other peas/beans). People kept hens for eggs and if lucky had a cow for milk and butter and perhaps cheese. (Yields were much lower then; cheesemaking is not easy in primitive circumstances.) They might also have a pig, kept as a pet on scraps etc for a year and then - alas - butchered. A famous old saying records how 'every bit of the pig was used, apart from the squeal'. A lot of the pig-meat was salted and smoked to preserve it for use - in small quantities - almost as a flavouring. Pig fat was rendered and carefully stored. People planted apple and pear trees, and gathered (or if clever) 'developed' cultivated versions of wild berries - brambles, strawberries, raspberries. If even more clever, they kept bees for honey. They foraged for mushrooms and nuts, in season. By the coast, people ate fish, but it was never cheap. A lot of fish, even in medieval times, was smoked or salted or pickled to be sold at even higher prices at inland markets.

In other words, ordinary people in the past were mostly ominvores - but they ate much, much, much less animal produce than today.

Posh people in the past ate much more meat; it was a status-symbol but it was very unhealthy. (Am not making this up - just think of the digestive consequences of a diet with very little fibre ....)

FWIW - I agree with posters saying that the term 'cow farm' (I am sorry) betrays a woeful ignorance of how our food is produced. At the very least, if we are going to eat meat, we need to understand where it comes from, and from which type of animal.

The population of the UK in 1850 was around the 18 million mark so how people ate then isn't particularly relevant.

@scottishnames, I'm glad that you made the point about artificial fertiliser and Russia. I said much the same thing earlier in the thread and it's so important to understand this.

Whistlers I replied because someone up thread specifically asked. You have a problem with me doing that?

Actually, anyway, I think it is relevant. As another previous poster said, we've all got used to consuming far too much. Even in the mid/late 20th cent, expectations about food in the UK were vastly lower. If we're to save the planet, I suspect that our expectations are going to have to be lowered once again.

Sorry, @scottishnames, I worded my post badly. You are totally correct about how people ate then. I meant to agree with you but point out that the fact that the population is so much bigger now and also much more urbanised and that means there isn't any way to feed people the same diet now without much more intensive farming using a lot of fertiliser.

People then would have been using the manure from their one cow and hens to fertilise their vegetable patches too so it was a much more closed system.

@DepthOfTheAbyss

Yeah dairy farming can go. Cheese is fab but it’s just weird to be consuming milk from other mammals. Most people would be disgusted if you offered them some human milk but other mammals milk is fine. It just seems bizarre to me.

And yet plenty of animals will drink cow milk if given the chance (whether it's good for them or not). My dad had a glass of milk on a side table next to him, turned his back for ten seconds and the cat was stealing it.

That's fine Whistles - I did not mean to sound aggressive, so my apologies if it came across that way. Urbanisation does pose specific (and big) problems, but I do think, though, that we can learn at least a bit from the past. For example, it's within living memory, just about, when people kept just a few cows in relatively decent surrounding in towns, for fresh milk.

@silverspacesuit

Can a vegan please answer this for me as I struggle to understand.

Why do we have canine teeth if we are not meant to eat meat?

I'm not trying to be funny and/or goady but would love the answer

Mine are useful for ripping apart tofu steaks.

But they are nothing compared to my pretty-much-vegan chum Gary Goriila's.

Cutting out meat and dairy is the best thing you can do for the environment
Actually @MargotMoo the best thing you can do for the environment is to use contraception. Followed by selling the car and not flying. Even an electric car is still responsible for twice the annual emissions of its owner's meat consumption.

I remember reading years ago that the last time humans were consuming goods, energy and food at a pace that was renewable for the planet was 1950. I don't remember where I read it but it has the ring of truth about it.

There are many issues with the default plant = better narrative because the devil is in the details. A local omnivore diet could have a smaller carbon footprint than a vegan diet and can be far less processed.

Today I had lamb from 15 miles away grazed on land unsuitable for any other form of farming plus vegetables grown within 5 miles of my house ... this is far better than many vegan options that people fawn over

An alien reading this thread to learn about Earth eating habits would think that only vegetarians/vegans eat processed foods or food flown from overseas, while meat-eaters always stick to locally sourced food and cook every meal from scratch

no, it's because vegans say that being plant-based is better for the planet, but actually getting dairy milk from the UK (down the road in many cases) is better than getting oat or almond milk from overseas

it's not arguing that people all buy lovely organic milk

@RubyFruitSunday

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

Veganism really IS the answer.

@berlinbabylon

An alien reading this thread to learn about Earth eating habits would think that only vegetarians/vegans eat processed foods or food flown from overseas, while meat-eaters always stick to locally sourced food and cook every meal from scratch

no, it's because vegans say that being plant-based is better for the planet, but actually getting dairy milk from the UK (down the road in many cases) is better than getting oat or almond milk from overseas

it's not arguing that people all buy lovely organic milk

It's not better for the cows I'd wager.

And really, there's no need for 'milk' of any sort unless one is an infant.

Not vegan....less meat probably but not vegan and I say that as a vegan