To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

Its also easy enough to buy locally and ethically produced high quality meat e.g. from your local farm shop, or farmers' market, or similar. But thats a lot less convenient than Tesco. But to suggest that there are no sources of higher quality ethically produced meat in this country is ridiculous. I've got a free range pig farm near me, and those pigs seem to lead quite an idyllic life, outdoors all the time with lots of shelters and space to move about and socialise with others.

I'd lose the judgmental friends or at a minimum tell them to keep their opinions to themselves.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and frankly, if they go around spouting that attitude, they'll turn others off from even considering veganism. People like them are the reason so many people avoid vegans and think they're annoying.

@JimMorrisonsleathertrousers

You'll never get it off the shelves. Some people going vegan isn't going to stop it happening because it's only a small percentage of people doing it.

@Plantlady10

The meat and (especially) dairy industry is horrific and cruel. Most people would not be okay with a cat or dog going through what farm animals go through.

That is why people are vegan

Good point. I've worked on a kill line in a slaughter house. Not an ounce of humanity exists there.

I personally think that any steps you take to lessen your meat & dairy intake is a good thing & we should all be encouraging that, not making it a competition of "I'm purer & more caring" than you & you're not doing enough.

I've been mostly vegetarian with the very occasional pescatarian day, for most of my life, don't use milk either & source cheese etc locally etc. I would never judge someone else's choice. I accept that we are biologically omnivores, which means we need to eat a bit of meat, fish, eggs etc & lots of veg. But it's not for me. I understand the motives of ethical veganism & respect that so long as they are not risking their own health or preaching. But again, it's not for me.

Instead of preaching, you need to be encouraging people to eat less meat & dairy, sharing genuinely healthy & tasty vegan recipes, talk about supplements for B12 etc & accept that it's perfectly okay to just cut back & not go the whole hog. Most people I know who have cut back, have ended up vegetarians at least anyway

Our friends are long time diet knowledgeable vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians & carnivores, they don't judge each other.

My only issues with nouveau vegans is the preaching & that I see too many replacing meat with processed fake meats, not eating enough key vitamins & not supplementing, whilst preaching to others that they don't do enough

I read a very interesting article by a scientist that works for the Soil Association recently. His view was that an element of organic stock farming was better for the environment alongside organic produce farming. His main concern was that if we ditched the animals altogether then all fertilisers would be chemical which would be a disaster for the soil. His other main point was that stock farming can take place on land that is not suitable for arable and that land often also lends itself to environmental planting/wilding etc.

My only issues with nouveau vegans is the preaching & that I see too many replacing meat with processed fake meats, not eating enough key vitamins & not supplementing, whilst preaching to others that they don't do enough

I know a lot of vegans and can genuinely say I’ve only ever known one that has gone on about it. But she goes on about everything that she does so just a trait of hers. If there’s a discussion, I’ll put my views forward and I do get involved with animal rights, but day to day, I just don’t come across people like it. As a vegan I’ve had a few negative comments from meat eaters with no provocative. I think it’s more about the person than what they choose to eat, you’re either a dick that feels you can comment on others in a situation where it’s not appropriate or you’re not.

I hope everyone is vegan one day but until then any reduction in animal products is a step in the right direction.

If veganism was actually the most efficient way to eat, all the animals would do it. And so would all the societies that are on the edge of sustainability.

Instead what you see is that when you have vegetarian groups in traditional societies, they are almost always the elite or well off. The poor eat whatever, and so do the farmers.

The most sustainable farming is mixed. Most western people eat far too much meat to be sustainable, but veganism and vegetarianism isn't all that great in the end either, because it cannot make use of all the synergies of a complete ecosystem.

If you look at industrial farming models, it is true that animal based ones are worse than plant based ones. But the problems with that are that they are both unsustainable; they are both dependent of fossil fuels to a significant degree; and they are also very intertwined so you can't really separate them out anyway.

For sustainability your best bet is to look at the kinds of farms around you that practice sustainable agriculture, and then buy what you can afford from them. You will find their meat products are relatively expensive so chances are you won't eat a ton of them anyway. And you will also be able to feel like their plant products are sustainably produced, or as close to it as possible.

@SucculentChalice

Branleuse did you really just ask "what on earth is a cow farm"?

Well, yes. Because I live on a farm, surrounded by farms, and I have yet to hear anyone talk about a "cow farm". Cattle farms, yes, but single sex reproducers, no. Not without AI.

Surely its clear she means a farm where farmers raise cows, either for dairy or for meat

No, its not. Its mainly bullocks, which are immature males, which are raised for beef.

Have you just been dropped here from another planet where you’re not aware that ‘cow’ is colloquially used to refer to both male and female cattle? Or do you think your faux naïveté makes you sound superior?

However, it is very easy to say veganism is unhealthy and has a greater environmental impact. Yet no one is in the same breath saying the same thing about non-vegans and those who live off processed foods and are wildly unhealthy. The fact is that most vegans have better weight management and the few studies suggest that being vegan seems to correlate with better health…although the evidence for this is still very limited. And of course flying in almond milk or avocados has an environmental impact, but the impact of animal farming is significant - the amount of water required for beef, and the amount of feed that cows require is shocking compared to the amount of food that is actually produced.

So this water thing:

It would be an issue in a place like California, where they are in a drought, and draining their aquifer for agriculture. And places like California send out large amounts of water in the form of all kinds of agricultural products. Similarly Israel, IIRC. It's a problem because it is affecting the local ecosystem.

But if you live in a place with lots of water, and a cow drinks it, that is not necessarily a problem. The water doesn't disappear from the world, it's just being held in a body, the same as with plants that suck up water. And the ecosystem isn't being impacted significantly by the cow drinking that water.

It's when you have certain regions that are exporting so much food to other places, especially in fragile ecosystems, or things like big feed lots where there is so much water needed and also so much organic waste, that you run into trouble. But even growing things like oranges for export in places like that can be very problematic. It's asking more of the land than it can really give.

People disparage the idea of food miles, but it's not as straightforward as many seem to think. It's also about the reality that you have some regions that end up being seriously over-farmed, or places in far off countries where you really can't see the farming or labour practices, or affect the regulations.

At the moment if you wanted to change from dairy or beef farming to cereal or vegetable production in the UK or Ireland you would have problems. You'd need Russian fertiliser and a lot of heavy machinery that runs on fossil fuels.

I think a big part of the problem is that people will pay a lot for anything marked 'Vegan' at the moment but still expect meat to be cheap. If people were willing to pay the real cost for ethical meat and eggs then there would be a natural move towards a healthier diet.

I came to your thread to read about veganism but all I could read was how strange your friend group is. Do you all follow each in everything you do!
Can you have your own opinion without being subjective to pressure from the group ?

Talking about vegan vs. omnivore diets is also a bit pointless if you don't consider global food security. At the moment Ukrainian farmers can't get their seeds in the ground. We are very lucky to have all the options we currently have.

In terms of grazing land, sheep and cattle have massively changed the landscape, at least in the north of England where there are a lot of upland farms. There are much fewer trees as they were cleared for grazing and this has an effect on flooding and biodiversity.

If animal farming stopped the land could be managed to rerun to its original form.

However, I love a good steak so fuck the trees

@SucculentChalice

Its also easy enough to buy locally and ethically produced high quality meat e.g. from your local farm shop, or farmers' market, or similar. But thats a lot less convenient than Tesco. But to suggest that there are no sources of higher quality ethically produced meat in this country is ridiculous. I've got a free range pig farm near me, and those pigs seem to lead quite an idyllic life, outdoors all the time with lots of shelters and space to move about and socialise with others.

Ethical Those pigs had a reasonable 6 months so the blade through throat is cancelled out?

Don't kid on there's anything ethical about raising an animal only to kill it.

97% of pigs are barned.

At the very centre of this argument (and both sides hold water) there is a victim. And that victim ends up on you plate. It's a personal choice definitely but I dislike hear people reason with words such as humane etc.

@Fr0thandBubble

On your first point OP, animals do lots of things that we wouldn’t do because we have the intellectually ability to know that if a human were to do them it would be morally abhorrent. For example, a male animal will have sex with a female animal whether that female wants to or not. We, as humans, know that that would be entirely wrong, so we don’t do it. For me, it’s the same with eating meat. Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should).

Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should)

You feel it’s wrong to eat meat but not everyone else does. That’s your opinion, and like the OP’s friends, you’re basically admonishing her for something she has every right to do. I think you’re missing the point of the thread.

@RubyFruitSunday You do what you think is right. Look at it this way, your vegan/veggie friends are eating the way they choose so why shouldn’t you? Eat organic if it makes you feel better but you aren’t doing anything wrong.

No one said eating animals products is morally equated to rape.

But the argument is that animals do all sorts of behaviours including eating animals should not have any baring on human actions based on what is ‘natural’.

I haven’t read the full thread, but if I was happy with what I was doing, and so-called friends were trying to shame me, I’d find some new friends who respected me.

Really, people who think they’re morally superior to me for any reason are probably crashing bores, and really not very nice.

Eat local and seasonal foods.
That's the answer. It reduces food miles and land is used to produce food with the best yield.
The real issue is erosion of fretile land to feed the ever increasing human population.

@SucculentChalice

Its also easy enough to buy locally and ethically produced high quality meat e.g. from your local farm shop, or farmers' market, or similar. But thats a lot less convenient than Tesco. But to suggest that there are no sources of higher quality ethically produced meat in this country is ridiculous. I've got a free range pig farm near me, and those pigs seem to lead quite an idyllic life, outdoors all the time with lots of shelters and space to move about and socialise with others.

Do you think the 60 million meat eaters in the UK all buy from local farms?!

That every animal eaten in the UK lives in a pretty field full of blossom trees and potters about happily? Where are they all?!! 1 billion chickens get eaten every year - do you have a lovely field near you full of chickens?

@londonmummy1966

I read a very interesting article by a scientist that works for the Soil Association recently. His view was that an element of organic stock farming was better for the environment alongside organic produce farming. His main concern was that if we ditched the animals altogether then all fertilisers would be chemical which would be a disaster for the soil. His other main point was that stock farming can take place on land that is not suitable for arable and that land often also lends itself to environmental planting/wilding etc.

Most animals raised for food don’t live on soil - they are in vast metal sheds.

We are going to need a lot of fields for all those chickens the uk want to eat

Will nobody think of the bees?!?
Veganism is terrible for bees. Intensive monoculture is wrecking huge swathes of the ecosystem around the globe. On a par with those horrific cattle farms with no grass for mile after mile.
Our destruction of bees will be our downfall (if Putin doesn't push the button).
Eat British; eat organic.

@MangyInseam

If veganism was actually the most efficient way to eat, all the animals would do it. And so would all the societies that are on the edge of sustainability.

Instead what you see is that when you have vegetarian groups in traditional societies, they are almost always the elite or well off. The poor eat whatever, and so do the farmers.

The most sustainable farming is mixed. Most western people eat far too much meat to be sustainable, but veganism and vegetarianism isn't all that great in the end either, because it cannot make use of all the synergies of a complete ecosystem.

If you look at industrial farming models, it is true that animal based ones are worse than plant based ones. But the problems with that are that they are both unsustainable; they are both dependent of fossil fuels to a significant degree; and they are also very intertwined so you can't really separate them out anyway.

For sustainability your best bet is to look at the kinds of farms around you that practice sustainable agriculture, and then buy what you can afford from them. You will find their meat products are relatively expensive so chances are you won't eat a ton of them anyway. And you will also be able to feel like their plant products are sustainably produced, or as close to it as possible.

That’s factually wrong. India for example is mostly vegetarian across all demographics.

The UK and US eat far more meat than most European countries.