To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

It IS also a human rights issue as areas around slaughter houses generally have larger numbers of drug abuse and domestic violence cases. Violence breeds violence. And it is disadvantaged people who take the brunt of it. Because let's face it - who grows up thinking I really want to work in a slaughter house.

I doubt there are many on here who work at the sharp end in a slaughter house. It is traumatising and goes against our basic instincts.

You really haven't a clue! In the town I live in there are people who have worked in slaughterhouses their whole working lives without becoming the slightest bit violent, or traumatised, or turning to drugs. I have friends who have worked there (female, not directly involved in killing) who are perfectly normal women. I wouldn't have called them "disadvantaged" either - just regular people doing regular jobs, and believe it or not, some of them did grow up thinking that was where they wanted to work.

Follow the Hodmedods farming methods? Look at their website. They grow pulses on Norfolk soil that are full of protein.

Yes, I'm sure the countries who buy our products are going to want to take pulses instead of sheep/beef/dairy products!! Once again, you haven't a clue.

I actually grew up very rurally in the middle of nowhere, in Devon, 1.5miles to the nearest village

I'm sorry, but 1.5 miles to the nearest village is hardly "very rural" - and it certainly isn't "the middle of nowhere". That is laughable.

I'm the first to admit some parts of farming are not pleasant, but really it's not just as simple as everyone becoming vegan and growing pulses.

@SquirrelG

Ok! How far from a village do I have to live to make my viewpoint acceptable to you? As I said, I lived right next door to a farm.... But that isn't acceptable? I saw what went on there, unfortunately for your argument. As I said, it was really upsetting.

@SquirrelG - sorry but you do not get to decide who does or doesn't have a clue!

You may anecdotally know happy slaughter house workers but many studies have been done which show the mental damage that working in these environments cause. Don't take my word for it - look it up.

Stop being a defender of the indefensible.

@SquirrelG

Follow the Hodmedods farming methods? Look at their website. They grow pulses on Norfolk soil that are full of protein.

Yes, I'm sure the countries who buy our products are going to want to take pulses instead of sheep/beef/dairy products!! Once again, you haven't a clue.

We import 50% of our meat and fish. Sell to the UK?

The real issue is you can sell meat for higher than pulses. It’s all about money really isn’t it.

We have got a clue - you don’t like being called out for your industry

So we need to live near farms to ‘buy only organic locally sourced meat’ - but not too close to hear the animal distress?

Not sure what the meat eaters want us all to do. There are still 60 million of us. Not enough lovely hills in Scotland with happy cows raised by above average happy workers to feed us all.

Good points @Newgirls

Aside from the cruelty, eating animals is really inefficient. Apparently we could theoretically end world hunger if we stopped eating animals and their secretions.

After all, it takes a lot of plants to grow billions of animals every year.

Sorry I created this thread then went AWOL, have had some stuff going on.

Interesting points. I hadn't even considered the impact on slaughter house workers but to be honest the thought of the nitty gritty makes me feel really sad as an animal lover.

I'm also a bit sceptical of the 'vegan diets are processed' argument as if chicken nuggets, burgers, sausages etc arent processed. I know a lot of meat isnt but I bet huge quantities of the slaughtered animals do go on to become products with very little nutritional value.

I think the thing is that so many people clearly don't care where their food comes from (the amount of people that say 'but bacon' when vegetarianism is discussed) that I cant honestly say I think a small amount of privileged people going vegan will make a huge difference to the plight of the animals. For every one person that cares there are ten that dont/cant afford to etc. Which makes it difficult, like I'm giving up things I enjoy for literally zero input to the bigger picture.

Its called cognitive dissonance. The same people who say "but bacon" are mostly horrified by things like dog meat and straight up animal cruelty.

Look at the reaction to Kurt Zouma kicking his cat! I'd rather be that cat than a pig being farmed for its flesh but mostly no one gives a toss about the pigs.

Without this, some of the land could be re-wilded We need to increase food production in this country not reduce it

Very true @Carpy899 but how can we genuinely make a difference when most people think like this? I did myself for 30 years.

You may anecdotally know happy slaughter house workers but many studies have been done which show the mental damage that working in these environments cause. Don't take my word for it - look it up.

This is what annoys me intensely about MN - the majority of people here seem to base their ideas on "studies" rather than real life. The rubbish I have seen written here by someone who quotes various studies, and is prepared to argue black is white with people who actually KNOW rather than just read.

You may well be right, but we all know that there are a lot of factors which come into play when these "studies" are done, and facts can be manipulated. I don't live in the UK, but in a country where agriculture features much more and working in slaughterhouses (we don't actually call them that here) has for decades been the employment of choice of all sorts of people, and I've yet to hear of one who has suffered from mental damage. Presumably if they hated working there so much they would leave - it's not a life sentance you know!

@SquirrelG

You may anecdotally know happy slaughter house workers but many studies have been done which show the mental damage that working in these environments cause. Don't take my word for it - look it up.

This is what annoys me intensely about MN - the majority of people here seem to base their ideas on "studies" rather than real life. The rubbish I have seen written here by someone who quotes various studies, and is prepared to argue black is white with people who actually KNOW rather than just read.

You may well be right, but we all know that there are a lot of factors which come into play when these "studies" are done, and facts can be manipulated. I don't live in the UK, but in a country where agriculture features much more and working in slaughterhouses (we don't actually call them that here) has for decades been the employment of choice of all sorts of people, and I've yet to hear of one who has suffered from mental damage. Presumably if they hated working there so much they would leave - it's not a life sentance you know!

Hahahahaha yeah what fools for basing opinions on scientific and well researched studies over anecdotal evidence.

The real issue is you can sell meat for higher than pulses. It’s all about money really isn’t it.

Of course it's about money - that's how world trade works. What fantasy world do you live in?

We have got a clue - you don’t like being called out for your industry

You live in a country which can't even feed itself, and you are trying to tell countries which rely on agriculture for their main source of income that they shouldn't be doing that. What do you think the largest trading partners are going to do if the country supplying them with meat/dairy products tells them they aren't going to supply them any more because it's evil and we are all going vegan? Do you think those trading partners are going to say "Hey, what a great idea, we'll all go vegan too - send us some pulses"? Like I said - you haven't a clue.

Hahahahaha yeah what fools for basing opinions on scientific and well researched studies over anecdotal evidence.

Yep, fools just about covers it.

Carpy Hahahahaha yeah what fools for basing opinions on scientific and well researched studies over anecdotal evidence.

Oh come on now. Some of those so-called "scientific studies" are highly dubious and some of them are actually paid for by pressure groups! Obviously their efficacy depends on what evidence is considered and whether they are done purposively - with the evidence designed to be produced to agree with the desired conclusion.

Newgirls We know… and wow they are called different words in different languages too. However the meat industry like to spin it, phrase it, word it, it’s still raising and killing animals who have no say in the matter.

Um, right. Are you in some kind of competition to be the most patronising person on earth or something?

I guess using a variety of words helps you to mentally distance from the work you do. The animals themselves don’t care what you call them.

I'm a lawyer who breeds horses. Large, valuable sport horses. I also have pigs and goats who are pets. Plus a couple of sheep. Also pets. They all care very, very much what I call them, as they know their own names. I mean, they will also all answer to "sweetie" as well, so perhaps they don't, but still...

I also have some arable fields which have a very high yield but they're rented out. The land is so productive around here that there are barely any animals. My first post on the first page goes into it in some tedious detail, about how its not that nice living in an arable desert where all the hedgerows and public footpaths have been ploughed up so that the massive machinery used by the contractors around here isn't inconvenienced.

I'm sure you're a lovely person, and I also suspect we eat much the same diet and agree on many things, particularly poor slaughter practices, but I'm honestly thinking you must be a plant on here to make vegans/vegetarians sound purposively ignorant.

You do like your stereotypes, don't you? Earlier in this thread, you asked me, scathingly, what on earth I knew about farming. And I pointed out to you that I owned a farm, surrounded by farms. Now, you have piegonholed me into some simpleton cattle or pig breeder who sends animals for slaughter!

I really get the impression that you know absolutely nothing, totally zero about farming and farming methods, and that this is all entirely ideological and hypothetical for you.

I think comparing this number to the small number of animals that are inevitably caught up in the production of crops is fairly nonsensical.

"Small number"? Pesticides are literally mass-murder.

I think you have mean friends!
I would never tell my friends what to eat or say that they were part of the problem.
Eat what makes you happy and healthy.

Maybe ask the farmers what happens to the male chicks or unwanted calves. The whole process is rotten from beginning to end.

Male calves get castrated and join a beef herd. Common practice now, just like in the olden days.

Away from intensive chicken farming (which is dominant, granted) male chicks likewise end up on your Sunday roast.

@derxa

Without this, some of the land could be re-wilded We need to increase food production in this country not reduce it

A quick google shows there are approx

7.8 billion humans on Earth.
We breed, grow and kill
302 billion animals each year.

I think we've got enough leeway there in terms of farmland if we stop animal agriculture....

@DdraigGoch

I think comparing this number to the small number of animals that are inevitably caught up in the production of crops is fairly nonsensical.

"Small number"? Pesticides are literally mass-murder.

Pesticides are used on crops, the vast majority of which is fed to the animals I'm guessing you eat.

As I said, approx 302 BILLION animals are bred and killed every year for us humans to eat. You aren't seriously saying that vegans cause more death than that?

@DdraigGoch

Maybe ask the farmers what happens to the male chicks or unwanted calves. The whole process is rotten from beginning to end.

Male calves get castrated and join a beef herd. Common practice now, just like in the olden days.

Away from intensive chicken farming (which is dominant, granted) male chicks likewise end up on your Sunday roast.

Male dairy calves are not economically viable for meat. They do not put weight on quickly enough. Don't take my word for it, just do some research.

They are either used for veal. (Awful obviously, and killed when usually 6-8 months old, so still babies.) or often just shot at birth. Again, I'm just the messenger, feel free to check my facts.

Approx 95,000 shot at birth in the U.K. per year. Again if you buy animal products, you are paying people to do this .

Pesticides are used on crops, the vast majority of which is fed to the animals

The vast majority of crops in the UK do not become animal feed. Cattle and sheep farms in the UK feed their animals mostly on pasture (including dried or fermented grasses). No need for pesticides on grass.

Other feeds are generally byproducts of human food production. Wheat not considered good enough for milling into flour becomes chicken feed. Used brewer's grain can be fed to livestock. Letting herbivores graze on stubble helps add organic fertiliser into the soil of arable fields.

Male dairy calves are not economically viable for meat. They do not put weight on quickly enough. Don't take my word for it, just do some research

Traditional methods are usually more expensive than intensive farming. That doesn't mean that everyone uses intensive methods. The overwhelming majority of male calves from dairy herds go into beef herds. Sexed semen means that far fewer male calves get conceived in the first place. Your figures are well out of date, routinely euthanising male calves is now banned at Red Tractor farms, which produce 95% of milk. Even before the ban, Sainsbury's, Morrisons, M&S, Waitrose and the Co-op didn't buy from farms which continued the practice. Perhaps you need to update your "research".