To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

[quote headspin10]@Comedycook
That's like saying all meat eaters are healthy! There are a kaleidoscope of vegan diets. From chips and skittles to whole food plant based, beans, pulses, tonnes of veg and seeds which you can easily research is one of the healthiest diets out there. [/quote]
I disagree because I believe consuming animal fats is absolutely vital. They are wrongly demonised.

[quote headspin10]@trancepants Your first paragraph is completely wrong. There are vast swathes of the world who eat a mostly vegan diet with occasional meat or fish, when they can get it. These are some of the poorest communities.

Many vegans eat processed food- processed food is not great whether meat or vegan. Many vegans dong touch the stuff. [/quote]
Oh really? I worked in international development and know quite a bit more about the diets of the majority of the world than most people. Modern veganism is absolutely 100% a luxury western belief. It's utter fucking bollox and using people born to far more difficult circumstances than we will hopefully ever experience is actually truly fucking, fucked up to be quite honest. Fashionable vegans, using the poorer, more exploited people of the world as some sort of 'gotcha' to prop up their nonsense and make them feel superior is honestly shameful behaviour.

Poorer people eat less meat as they have less access to it, not because they eschew it for moral or health reasons. They have poorer health outcomes, lower lifespans, more pregnancy losses and early childhood deaths. And those who live to old age have less physical capability, than the average meat and dairy consuming westerner who eats well and exercises. So lets not romanticise the poorer populations and use them as a prop for our own vanity experiments.

I agree, I think more gains overall will be made by encouraging people to reduce their consumption of the most harmful environmental products (we have reduced beef to a once a month thing for instance and I sometimes use olive oil instead of butter now) rather than saying that everyone must be vegan etc. the velvet glove will be better than the iron fist with this sort of change!

@Comedycook : consuming animal fats is absolutely vital

Please can you give some scientific references to support that belief?

[quote lljkk]@Comedycook : consuming animal fats is absolutely vital

Please can you give some scientific references to support that belief?[/quote]
it's common sense. Babies drink milk...not carrot juice. Are you honestly telling me you could raise a human being from birth without ever consuming animal fat and they'd survive and thrive?

Gosh, there really is such a thing as vegan infant formula milk.
So it seems that it is not vital to feed a baby human on animal fats.

I think we need some animals to be eaten. Organic farming needs animal poo! I read something interesting the other day about the cost of fertiliser used on non organic farms. It's gone from approx £200 (per tonne?? Not sure of units) to £1000 due to world events which makes huge non organic farms v difficult to turn a profit. I think the 'organic farming isn't economically viable' argument may be not so true going forwards. We're all going to have to pay more for food unfortunately.

Humans are omnivores. Look at our teeth. We’re made for plants AND meat. You’re totally not being unreasonable

Cripes these threads are always full of such ignorance. I'm vegan mainly because I just don't fancy eating decaying animal parts or things partially made of of their bodily secretions and its cruel. But most vegans don't preach to others about it and only get defensive when all sorts of weird expectations (ie vegans should be perfect otherwise what's the point), how unhealthy vegan meat subs are (when all processed food is really and vegans can survive without eating them), or nutrition facts not based in reality. The only time I mention it is if directly asked such as for a catered meal and the reservation asks, if it's someone I don't really know offering food such as cake in the office I just say no thank you, as do most. I don't think it's the answer to all of the environmental issues, but lots of scientists agree that meat consumption is a huge contributor.

I don't know of any other animal that cooks its meat either.

@lljkk

Gosh, there really is such a thing as vegan infant formula milk. So it seems that it is not vital to feed a baby human on animal fats.

Which has to be shipped in from Europe. Not convinced that's better for the planet than standard formula. It's also very expensive which means most people wouldn't be able to afford it

A lot of land in the U.K. used for livestock can’t be used to grow crops. Too hilly, too waterlogged etc.

Trancepants your meat rich diet hasn't helped you or your families aneamia so far.

OP, This is an issue that people have discussed for years.

At the end of the day it is an individual decision that people make for themselves after considering all the issues.

As a ovo-vegetarian I am pleased you are thinking about this but I am not going to try and influence you one way or another !

@LibrariesGiveUsPower

A lot of land in the U.K. used for livestock can’t be used to grow crops. Too hilly, too waterlogged etc.

I think its a bit ambitious to expect people who talk about "cow farms" and think farmers have been dropped from other plants to appreciate that. They probably think you can just plough it up and plant it with some lovely wheat...

#planets. Freudian slip.

@lljkk

Some babies are given vegan formula if they have certain allergies or intolerances and/or there's no access to breast milk. It's certainly not the best choice nutritionally from what I understand but it's better than a baby starving to death.

@SilverSplitsTheBlue

Trancepants your meat rich diet hasn't helped you or your families aneamia so far.

So you clearly have no clue about pernicious anaemia, b12 or auto immune disorders and just tried to be really nasty to try and prove a nonexistent point to someone who doesn't buy into modern vegan bullshit.

Gosh, there really is such a thing as vegan infant formula milk
So it seems that it is not vital to feed a baby human on animal fats

Don't vegan forumula milks use soya? I thought that wasn't recommended unless the baby is 6 months or older because of the phytoestrogens and glucose in it?

@SquirrelG

No-one refers to "cow farms". I have never, ever heard the phrase before. If you talked like that around here, the wave of laughter would literally carry on your little gust of superiority so far that you would end up in the sea.

I agree. I'm in NZ and I have never heard anyone say "cow farm" and was a bit taken aback to see it here. People either farm cattle, or they have dairy farms. Cow farm might be something a particularly ignorant city dweller would say, but no-one else would use that term

Cow farm - shorthand in haste for any kind of farming that uses cows. You use them for beef, milk, leather or whatever. I doubt the cow itself cares what you call it. You still kill them.

Your body doesn't make enough red blood cells because it doesn't have enough B12. I thought we could both sprout a lot of shite, just like you did in your post about vegans? Or is it just you that comes out with nonsense?

@SilverSplitsTheBlue

Your body doesn't make enough red blood cells because it doesn't have enough B12. I thought we could both sprout a lot of shite, just like you did in your post about vegans? Or is it just you that comes out with nonsense?

I have a strong family history of it. I don't have it myself. Sorry your reading comprehension is shitty but it doesn't excuse you trying to make extremely nasty but very stupid jibes at someone's health. I have been advised to never adopt a vegan or vegetarian diet by my doctors. My B12 levels are regularly monitored and are still at very healthy levels, slightly above average for a woman my age.

What else in my post was a load of shite? My body fat percentage is low for a woman, my muscle mass range is far higher than average, my bone density is excellent. I took up an endurance sport at 40 and timed into the 'elite athlete' lists. Low down on them, sure, but still an achievement. And despite my age have yet to have to choose between my ass and my face. I know far too many vegans and vegetarians, including the more old style ones that aren't part of the current fad, to think for one second that I'd have the physical health that I enjoy at my age and plan on enjoying for the next 40+ without a diet that's heavy on animal fats and protein.

Trancepsnts You clearly enjoy a nasty swipe at vegans. Apologies if YOU feel set upon.

There’s so much nonsense spouted on this thread with no evidence supporting. I’m vegan but, like most vegans, I don’t talk about it unless asked (or it’s appropriate to mention, like now).

If people are genuinely interested in understanding the health implications of a plant based diet then I recommend researching it and not just making up things (we need animal fats to survive / be healthy etc.) as many people on this thread seem to be doing. Here’s a helpful stating resource plantbasedhealthprofessionals.com/factsheets

The environmental benefits of a plant based diet are factually indisputable so I’m not going to bother responding to each of the nonsense reasons people give for suggesting otherwise, I’ll just suggest again, if you genuinely care then do 5 minutes of research and you’ll get the facts. Here’s another useful starting point www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31788-4/fulltext

The world has no choice but to become plant based as we can sustain the amount of people on a meat diet. There isn't enough resources so something drastic needs done.