To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

Here’s another useful resource which covers health and environmental impacts of diet www.nationalfoodstrategy.org/the-report/

The simple fact is, people will always eat what they want to eat based on the foods available.

The same as big cooperations will always fund research on the benefits of different diets/ products that will swing in their favour.

A diet reflecting the ecosystem you are living in is probably the most sensible one, this at least, has been tried and tested for centuries.

@Ylvamoon

The simple fact is, people will always eat what they want to eat based on the foods available. The same as big cooperations will always fund research on the benefits of different diets/ products that will swing in their favour. A diet reflecting the ecosystem you are living in is probably the most sensible one, this at least, has been tried and tested for centuries.

Which is why we need a National Food Strategy as current food production is unsustainable. It was published last year and I recommend anyone interested in the Uk and it’s food policies read it.

We have to stop some of our current behaviours and shift to less meat/transport/better packaging etc

[quote VegMam]Here’s another useful resource which covers health and environmental impacts of diet www.nationalfoodstrategy.org/the-report/[/quote]
Exactly this! This was in consultation by universities, food producers, supermarkets, retail and restaurant guilds.

The cheapest most efficient way to feed a large population is with carbs/plants...it's better than mass starvation. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the healthiest way to eat though.

@YoComoManzanas

I don't know of any other animal that cooks its meat either.

I don't know of any other animal that cooks its vegetables.

That would be because they never mastered the use of fire.

I suggest that you watch the National Geographic series "Origins: The Journey of Humankind".

Thank you @VegMam for speaking some sense!

People say eating meat is a 'personal choice' but it can't really be classed as that if it involves taking another's life.

Fundamentally, eating meat/dairy/eggs is morally wrong.

I know that's a big statement and it's uncomfortable. But it's also true. By most people's standards the unnecessary torture and death of animals is unpalatable.

At the very heart of it, is death. Unwelcome, premature, painful and scary death. And exploitation.

By talking about it and pointing it out people get abuse. I get it.
People feel uncomfortable with vegans and feel the need to attack them. Because they point out the bleeding obvious. 🤷‍♀️

If you can live your life without exploiting others then surely that should be the goal.

It may be impossible (at the moment) but that really shouldn't stop people from trying and moving in the right direction.

Why now? We know more about health. We know more about animal sentience. We know more about the environment.

It's happening. A huge social justice movement. Be proud to be part of it because in time it will be an embarrassment to be a proud murderer of animals.

Really well said @iamusuallyright.

I'd also add that I went from meat eater to vegan around 7 years ago. I LOVED food so much and still do. I was NOT expecting it to be in any way enjoyable. I just thought I would be missing out on things I used to love.

Not remotely the case. It felt like a whole new world of food opened up! We eat tonnes of veg, beans, nuts and fruit pretty much effortlessly now. The best meals of my life have almost all been vegan. We also feel much better for it. I honestly can't recommend it enough.

Fewer people is the answer.

@trancepants

Veganism is a luxury belief system. It's something that's only available to the wealthiest group of people in the world. (By which I mean westerners, who aren't necessarily rich by western standards but certainly are compared to most of the world.) And it's largely utter bollox that involves eating tonnes of highly processed food that's nutritionally lacking, not actually particularly environmentally friendly and utterly unsustainable if all 7bln of us somehow had the financial means to eat that way.

I am someone who knows I can never risk a vegan diet. I have a strong family history of pernicious anaemia and a vegan, or even vegetarian, diet would be incredibly dangerous for me. Dairy and eggs (along with fruit and vegetables) are essentially my staple foods, though I eat at least a portion of basic carbs and meat/foul/fish every day. I can't honestly fully convey how day to day amazing I feel. I'm in my 40s, athletically fit, have easy access to ultra endurance at high intensity, have muscle definition that you can see through most of my clothes, have excellent end range strength (ie healthy flexibility). And I'm still improving, getting faster, stronger, more flexible rather than slowing down despite my age. Despite my low body fat levels, I still have a full face, clear skin, shiny hair, great teeth and strong nails.

Conversely pretty much all vegans I know are deeply unhealthy. Either very under weight or skinny fat, ie desperately lacking in muscle. Poor hair, dull skin, often clearly somewhat anaemic. Which isn't to say that all meat and dairy eaters are healthy, we know most people aren't. But the idea that a vegan diet is inherently healthy is such utter bollox. It asks us to deny the obvious evidence that we can plainly see. Very few vegan people are fit, strong and healthy. Some are, but that takes enormous amounts of planning and the vast majority just don't do that.

Biggest load of bollocks I've read on here in ages.

Carpy899 isn't it just!

@headspin10

Thank you *@VegMam* for speaking some sense!

People say eating meat is a 'personal choice' but it can't really be classed as that if it involves taking another's life.

The vegan diet isn't free from death though - it's just more hidden. Animals are still killed to protect the crops, during harvest, potentially during transport/processing. But because the end result doesn't end up on the plate, they're a moral superiority that being vegan is somehow "better" than eating meat.

My beef comes from a farm I can walk to easily. I can see the cows grazing happily. They have one bad day (as the farmer puts it!) but a great life. They're also a rare breed, with the best of them being reserved as breeding stock. If the farm didn't sell the beef, there would be no call to keep the breed going. I get eggs from the same farm, and milk from a another that's still reasonably close.

Nothing is perfect, but I get annoyed by the holier than thou preaching of vegans about how wonderful they are and how great their diet is when it isn't.

@WeirdlyKind

Well, over 1 billion animals have been deliberately bred and killed in the U.K. so far just this year, it's only March.
I think comparing this number to the small number of animals that are inevitably caught up in the production of crops (many of which are fed to livestock- so, double death) is fairly nonsensical.

There is no way to live completely without causing harm and I've never said otherwise.

There is not one part of me which feels 'superior' to anyone else (quite the opposite!) so I'm afraid that is also incorrect- do direct me to where I stated that I was 'superior' in my previous posts?

Unfortunately if you are eating animal products at all, you are supporting unnecessary animal cruelty. That's just a fact. I faced these facts too, (I ate meat most of my life.) I'm 100 miles from perfect, but I will say I feel healthier both physically and mentally knowing I'm not paying people to hurt vulnerable animals who have literally no choice or way out.

@WeirdlyKind It's precisely because I don't feel superior, morally or otherwise that I don't want to partake in a cruel industry. Even if it's only 'one bad day' - which it won't be - what a fucker of a bad day it is. Why do you feel so superior that you can do that to another sentient being?

You don't need to. Full stop. So why would you knowingly contribute to such cruelty?

Maybe ask the farmers what happens to the male chicks or unwanted calves. The whole process is rotten from beginning to end.

And saying that because some animals die caught up in crop growing so therefore it's fine to breed billions of beings in order to slaughter them is nonsensical.

Newgirls Cow farm - shorthand in haste for any kind of farming that uses cows. You use them for beef, milk, leather or whatever. I doubt the cow itself cares what you call it. You still kill them.

It matters very much, because it tends because it is young male cattle who are mainly bred for their meat, and older female cows which are kept as dairy cattle. Very different methods of farming, different types of cattle with different feeding regimes involved. It does make you seem really lacking in knowledge if you refer to cows. Cows are older, female cattle.

I don’t think humans would have evolved the way we have if we had all been vegan. We’d all still be scrabbling around for berries and then feeling exhausted as we would be so anaemic!
There’s nothing worse than preachy vegans explaining why eating meat is so bad whilst simultaneously demonstrating how little they know about farming.
I appreciate not all vegans are like this and fully respect those who have decided to be vegan for whatever reason but don’t feel the need to tell everyone all about it.

I also don’t think British farming whether dairy or beef or other meat can be compared to the situation in places like South America where the rainforests are being burned to make way for massive intensive farming.
Where I am in Scotland we don’t see farming on this scale. Farms tend to be family run and the animals spend the vast majority of time outside in fields or on the hills in some places depending on the geography. Land which would be difficult to use for crops of any kind. Locally I see lots of hedgerows left intact which provide essential habitat for lots of insects, birds and small mammals. And not forgetting the bees of course.
I think it’s very easy to demonise farmers and farming if you’ve never actually spent any time on a farm…

@Ghislainedefeligonde

I don’t think humans would have evolved the way we have if we had all been vegan. We’d all still be scrabbling around for berries and then feeling exhausted as we would be so anaemic! There’s nothing worse than preachy vegans explaining why eating meat is so bad whilst simultaneously demonstrating how little they know about farming. I appreciate not all vegans are like this and fully respect those who have decided to be vegan for whatever reason but don’t feel the need to tell everyone all about it.

I also don’t think British farming whether dairy or beef or other meat can be compared to the situation in places like South America where the rainforests are being burned to make way for massive intensive farming.
Where I am in Scotland we don’t see farming on this scale. Farms tend to be family run and the animals spend the vast majority of time outside in fields or on the hills in some places depending on the geography. Land which would be difficult to use for crops of any kind. Locally I see lots of hedgerows left intact which provide essential habitat for lots of insects, birds and small mammals. And not forgetting the bees of course.
I think it’s very easy to demonise farmers and farming if you’ve never actually spent any time on a farm…

Seriously @Ghislainedefeligonde? The question posed by the op was asking whether veganism is the answer. If you don't want to hear from vegans then maybe stay clear of threads, errrrr, about veganism. Calling them 'preachy' is so reductive (and rude). Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe look at why you react badly to people telling you what's in front of your nose.

Unfortunately if you are eating animal products at all, you are supporting unnecessary animal cruelty. That's just a fact. I faced these facts too, (I ate meat most of my life.) I'm 100 miles from perfect, but I will say I feel healthier both physically and mentally knowing I'm not paying people to hurt vulnerable animals who have literally no choice or way out.

That's all very well and admirable, but what happens to the people who work in agriculture if everyone stops eating meat? Agriculture, including meat and dairy, are a major part of the economy in some countries, what do you propose all the people involved do instead? I live in a rural supply town, and while we do produce a large amount of crops and seeds in this area, this is also a dairy/meat farming part of the country (not the UK). If there is a downturn in farming the town suffers badly. Please don't say, as a poster on another thread once did, that the people who work in the industry "can find something else to do" - it's really not that simple.

Do you live rurally, or is this all based on city life? It seems to me there is a huge disconnect between city and rural ways of life, and city dwellers often don't have a clue about the reality of rural life.

@SquirrelG

Unfortunately if you are eating animal products at all, you are supporting unnecessary animal cruelty. That's just a fact. I faced these facts too, (I ate meat most of my life.) I'm 100 miles from perfect, but I will say I feel healthier both physically and mentally knowing I'm not paying people to hurt vulnerable animals who have literally no choice or way out.

That's all very well and admirable, but what happens to the people who work in agriculture if everyone stops eating meat? Agriculture, including meat and dairy, are a major part of the economy in some countries, what do you propose all the people involved do instead? I live in a rural supply town, and while we do produce a large amount of crops and seeds in this area, this is also a dairy/meat farming part of the country (not the UK). If there is a downturn in farming the town suffers badly. Please don't say, as a poster on another thread once did, that the people who work in the industry "can find something else to do" - it's really not that simple.

Do you live rurally, or is this all based on city life? It seems to me there is a huge disconnect between city and rural ways of life, and city dwellers often don't have a clue about the reality of rural life.

Obviously there will be a period of transition. It's not going to suddenly put mass people out of work but you have raised an interesting point. It IS also a human rights issue as areas around slaughter houses generally have larger numbers of drug abuse and domestic violence cases. Violence breeds violence. And it is disadvantaged people who take the brunt of it. Because let's face it - who grows up thinking I really want to work in a slaughter house.

I doubt there are many on here who work at the sharp end in a slaughter house. It is traumatising and goes against our basic instincts.

If you put a toddler in a room with a rabbit and an apple he'd try to cuddle or play with the rabbit and eat the apple. There is no deep instinct to hunt and kill prey.

If you are interested in learning more about the issues check out a newly published book, This is Vegan Propaganda by Ed Winters. He writes very clearly and succinctly on veganism and his book is well researched.

I agree @iamusuallyright and I think this is one topic that the omnivores on this thread are dodging.

I also recommend the book by Ed Winters. It's a hard read, but it's very well written and factual.

Vegans are against animal cruelty. The definition of veganism is to live by causing as little harm as possible. I don't understand how this can wind up so many omnivores?

The way animals are bred and killed is cruel. Unethical. I've said this twice before in this thread, but I'll say it again - how many omnivores would be happy for cats and dogs (and other beloved pets) to be treated the same way?

@SquirrelG

I actually grew up very rurally in the middle of nowhere, in Devon, 1.5miles to the nearest village, next door to a sheep farm with farms all around. My friend grew up on a dairy farm, so I spent a lot of my childhood seeing what goes on. The time they remove the young sheep from the mothers I was kept up all night by their cries. (Haunting and sad). Not nice.

That has played a part in why I (and my friend) are both vegan today, so sadly the 'city dwellers don't know what really goes on' arguement is not effective here.

I think a big problem is most people don't know what goes on behind the closed doors of farms. What they do routinely in animal agriculture is actually pretty nightmarish.

@SucculentChalice

Newgirls Cow farm - shorthand in haste for any kind of farming that uses cows. You use them for beef, milk, leather or whatever. I doubt the cow itself cares what you call it. You still kill them.

It matters very much, because it tends because it is young male cattle who are mainly bred for their meat, and older female cows which are kept as dairy cattle. Very different methods of farming, different types of cattle with different feeding regimes involved. It does make you seem really lacking in knowledge if you refer to cows. Cows are older, female cattle.

We know… and wow they are called different words in different languages too. However the meat industry like to spin it, phrase it, word it, it’s still raising and killing animals who have no say in the matter.

I guess using a variety of words helps you to mentally distance from the work you do. The animals themselves don’t care what you call them.

@Ghislainedefeligonde

I don’t think humans would have evolved the way we have if we had all been vegan. We’d all still be scrabbling around for berries and then feeling exhausted as we would be so anaemic! There’s nothing worse than preachy vegans explaining why eating meat is so bad whilst simultaneously demonstrating how little they know about farming. I appreciate not all vegans are like this and fully respect those who have decided to be vegan for whatever reason but don’t feel the need to tell everyone all about it.

I also don’t think British farming whether dairy or beef or other meat can be compared to the situation in places like South America where the rainforests are being burned to make way for massive intensive farming.
Where I am in Scotland we don’t see farming on this scale. Farms tend to be family run and the animals spend the vast majority of time outside in fields or on the hills in some places depending on the geography. Land which would be difficult to use for crops of any kind. Locally I see lots of hedgerows left intact which provide essential habitat for lots of insects, birds and small mammals. And not forgetting the bees of course.
I think it’s very easy to demonise farmers and farming if you’ve never actually spent any time on a farm…

Most of the 60 million people in the UK don’t live in remote Scottish countryside

Most meat is kept in metal sheds. Millions of chickens for a start. It’s horrific.

@SquirrelG

Unfortunately if you are eating animal products at all, you are supporting unnecessary animal cruelty. That's just a fact. I faced these facts too, (I ate meat most of my life.) I'm 100 miles from perfect, but I will say I feel healthier both physically and mentally knowing I'm not paying people to hurt vulnerable animals who have literally no choice or way out.

That's all very well and admirable, but what happens to the people who work in agriculture if everyone stops eating meat? Agriculture, including meat and dairy, are a major part of the economy in some countries, what do you propose all the people involved do instead? I live in a rural supply town, and while we do produce a large amount of crops and seeds in this area, this is also a dairy/meat farming part of the country (not the UK). If there is a downturn in farming the town suffers badly. Please don't say, as a poster on another thread once did, that the people who work in the industry "can find something else to do" - it's really not that simple.

Do you live rurally, or is this all based on city life? It seems to me there is a huge disconnect between city and rural ways of life, and city dwellers often don't have a clue about the reality of rural life.

Follow the Hodmedods farming methods? Look at their website. They grow pulses on Norfolk soil that are full of protein.