To not fit in because I'm working class

[Shadowmallow]

I'm from a working class background and I grew up with little money. I did very well academically and managed to go to a top uni and get a good degree, despite not feeling like I belonged. I've worked hard for 15 years to establish my career in a competitive industry with no financial support, which has resulted in a lot of stress and debt over the years.

I work in an industry that's generally full of wealthy, middle class people who dont seem to have any anxieties about life or financial limits (despite the salaries not being that much). I've recently started a new job and feel really out of place, like I do at every job. My colleagues have very different lifestyles and conversation topics to me. Eg. House renovations, skiing holidays, private schooling, second homes in Europe. I'm 36 and 'still' rent a small flat with a friend, which seems to surprise and provoke pity amongst my colleagues. Most had property bought for them/got deposits from their parents years ago and speak like this is standard practice. I rarely go on holidays and don't have any expensive hobbies as I've been trying to save for a house deposit for many years.

To get to this point in my career I've really struggled financially and mentally and I'm pretty tired. I dont feel like im seen on the same page as everyone else at work and think it also affects my career progression. I just wonder if I can ever belong here.

Similar situation with me OP. Was a child of single parent who worked 50+ hours a week and still did not have enough money. I never invited my friends over as the house was falling apart. I guess it did affect me and I've always felt out of place, but when my mother asked me what my childhood was like the other day, I said it was pretty good and I felt very loved despite my mother's long hours (I compared my life down against what other kids on my estate had). I have known middle class kids who never seemed to be happy and had drug and anger problems. Many never lived up to their parents expectations and it completely crushed them.

That said, I do feel like I don't belong in my public service role and didn't feel like I fitted in at uni. I thought due to the pay it would be all working class people in public services, but I soon realised that MC people can take these low paid roles because their lives are incredibly subsidised by parents. The worst was when one sat with the service users who were on benefits and talked about how stressful their renovation on their house was, but was looking forward to getting their massive 55 inch TV.

I have noticed that MC colleagues seem to go through the ranks a lot quicker despite making some terrible decisions. Where I work the MC people seems to have the confidence and vision to change things, the WC people correct the faults afterwards (despite highlighting them and getting ignored or being called obstructive). Being WC also held me back at university, I couldn't stay on and do a masters, despite getting a good first and an academic award. The six grand to do a masters seemed too risky without a job in the pipeline after, and PhD's would have had to be funded for me to do them.

So from my experience my inferiority complex has some truth in it and it is not all in my head. I think the MC expect a certain lifestyle and have the confidence, parental expectation and the financial means to get it, whereas WC people have to work harder, learn about MC culture to fit in (my parents didn't know anything about the world of work beyond the roles they do) and make decisions very carefully to make their life work, and they still may not get the things MC people take for granted.

And by the way, never liked the idea of skiing anyway. I couldn't think of anything worse than being surrounded by drunk people on skis talking about wanky restaurants, private education and rental properties.

You need to watch this OP. Very funny and made me realise that a lot of this aspirational talk you hear from other people is all bollocks.

Sorry @SuitcaseofWhine but I don't think you can blame being WC on not allowing you to progress at uni and do a masters. You obviously didn't have proper knowledge of the loan system if you felt that you had to have a good job in the pipeline before taking one on. And the vast majority of Phds are funded, not paid for by mummy and daddy. I feel this thread is so full of assumptions about "MC people" (who are a broad spectrum in themselves) and I say that as someone who has received zero handouts. Well actually not true, for my wedding my DPs gave me a pots and pan set they had recently bought and their old TV as they were upgrading it. I went to university as a mature student and my parents couldn't tell you the name of my course let alone pay for it and throw in multiple ski trips and a house deposit too.

@stayathomer

Everyone talking about OP moving publishing companies, is that even feasible? I'm an author and the whole book world is looking for a publishing job (although maybe once you're in you're in?)!! But op, kudos for the job you got and hopefully it'll get you a better paid job in the future (only if you want it of course!!!)

No, she needs to leave publishing altogether.

How are your digital skills @Shadowmallow?

@SuitcaseOfWhine

Similar situation with me OP. Was a child of single parent who worked 50+ hours a week and still did not have enough money. I never invited my friends over as the house was falling apart. I guess it did affect me and I've always felt out of place, but when my mother asked me what my childhood was like the other day, I said it was pretty good and I felt very loved despite my mother's long hours (I compared my life down against what other kids on my estate had). I have known middle class kids who never seemed to be happy and had drug and anger problems. Many never lived up to their parents expectations and it completely crushed them.

That said, I do feel like I don't belong in my public service role and didn't feel like I fitted in at uni. I thought due to the pay it would be all working class people in public services, but I soon realised that MC people can take these low paid roles because their lives are incredibly subsidised by parents. The worst was when one sat with the service users who were on benefits and talked about how stressful their renovation on their house was, but was looking forward to getting their massive 55 inch TV.

I have noticed that MC colleagues seem to go through the ranks a lot quicker despite making some terrible decisions. Where I work the MC people seems to have the confidence and vision to change things, the WC people correct the faults afterwards (despite highlighting them and getting ignored or being called obstructive). Being WC also held me back at university, I couldn't stay on and do a masters, despite getting a good first and an academic award. The six grand to do a masters seemed too risky without a job in the pipeline after, and PhD's would have had to be funded for me to do them.

So from my experience my inferiority complex has some truth in it and it is not all in my head. I think the MC expect a certain lifestyle and have the confidence, parental expectation and the financial means to get it, whereas WC people have to work harder, learn about MC culture to fit in (my parents didn't know anything about the world of work beyond the roles they do) and make decisions very carefully to make their life work, and they still may not get the things MC people take for granted.

And by the way, never liked the idea of skiing anyway. I couldn't think of anything worse than being surrounded by drunk people on skis talking about wanky restaurants, private education and rental properties.

I relate to a lot of this. Some MC people don't realise the baseline they're starting from gives them a significant head start in life - theyre kind of oblivious to what is their norm. Like the poster above, seemingly missing the point. You don't need to receive handouts, but having solid financial and cultural foundations makes a huge difference. For WC people, shelling out for a Master's for example is seen as too much of a risk. If it doesn't work out, you'll be left in the gutter with nothing and a ton of debt. The stakes are higher. So off to get a job that pays instead of 'following your dreams' or trying to further your career. If you're MC you have a confidence that all will work out, and if it doesn't well, you'll likely have a cushion to fall back on. Not always, but more likely to be the case.

Also bloody love Charlie Brooker

@bluedodecagon Yeah I'm looking to leave the publushing industry. A lot of what I do at the moment is digital, and I also UX design experience as I've helped to research and build some educational tools and apps over the past few years. Thinking of moving my career more in that direction.

If this thread was reversed and this was someone middle class looking down their noses at someone who was working class, people would be all over it. But it's OK the other way round is it? Who are you all to mock other people's hobbies and lifestyles? What business of yours is it if they chose to go skiing or riding? Or spend their money on holidays? FFS. Judgemental load of shit.

Odd about the 'pity' part of your OP.
I am MC, grew up riding, education focused, typical set up - but Im still renting at 48 and none of my MC peer group give a shiny shit. They know I chose to pursue art over money, and that my interests in life are a bit less....prescriptive. But I never feel out of place with my more 'straight laced' or monied friends.

I think it's about who you are, what you identify with. You are perceiving difference and those differences are an issue for you and your self esteem, perhaps. Do you feel like something of an imposter?

I honestly doubt anyone pities you because you rent from a landlord instead of a bank . Renting suits many people, regardless of class or profession. Some inherit property, some purchase more than one. Some lead a more bohemian lifestyle and don't give a damn. Does it matter?

Attitudes towards money and work do vary between social groups (I prefer that description to the word 'class') and maybe you feel at sea due to having experienced a different kind of upbringing and/or values.

Also, after reading your recent post, I do understand what you are driving at, and of course there are people who are so familiar with a safety buffer that it might not enter their heads to appreciate how one might move forward having to think differently.

I would suggest the people you are referring to seem to live a little like crabs in a bucket, in the sense that their life experience sounds hermetic and prescription based. Most of my own peer group, or those I knew at uni were a touch more savvy and aware, regardless of class/background. Could it not be the type of people you are associating with rather than their social background? There isn't a stereotypical MC just like there really isn't a stereotypical WC.

I've experienced the opposite to you - made a lot of WC friends in my teens who often made remarks about me being unable to relate or understand them die to having grown up privileged financially. Whilst I was able to acknowledge those differences, it felt a bit 'othering' at the time, and I often felt that I could not express an opinion on something and be taken seriously.

Not all MC have infinite safety nets. Many will get a rude awakening when older or will have to marry strategically to ensure the funds don't run out. Isn't marriage itself a sort of contract for this in some sense?
And monied parents can still fall ill and end up in care, having to sell property to support that. We inherited, but the property paid for care.

Then again, I am a bohemian degenerate so take my opinion with a pinch of salt

OP I can assure you that I don't have a solid MC foundation. My parents are from very WC backgrounds, left school at 16 (DF got no O levels) and remained in the same jobs until they retired. The only reason I would say that I am lower MC (rather than WC) is because they worked up to management within their workplaces over the decades and they were home owners. I've been told though on here that we are aspiring MC rather than actually falling within the class. I feel this blaming one's class roots, in people who are educated and clearly very intelligent people is a very white British thing, where "knowing your station" is the real hindrance.

[quote Shadowmallow]@bluedodecagon Yeah I'm looking to leave the publushing industry. A lot of what I do at the moment is digital, and I also UX design experience as I've helped to research and build some educational tools and apps over the past few years. Thinking of moving my career more in that direction.[/quote]
Fantastic! Those skills are in great demand.

Don’t rule out educational startups btw. They boomed over the pandemic period. They also may be more open to remote or hybrid working which would enable you to move to a cheaper part of London or even another European city.

I’ve just lost my job over this. I do the job as well as the next person if not better and I’m better qualified than most, but there has been a constant stream of complaints from my team about my hair, lack of makeup, accent, the fact that I don’t join them on expensive trips, that I’m not a member of their rotary and whatever, my husband having a manual job, lack of friends in high places. Basically they sniff you out if you’re not one of them and they find any stupid excuse to make your position impossible.

@StepAwayFromGoogling

If this thread was reversed and this was someone middle class looking down their noses at someone who was working class, people would be all over it. But it's OK the other way round is it? Who are you all to mock other people's hobbies and lifestyles? What business of yours is it if they chose to go skiing or riding? Or spend their money on holidays? FFS. Judgemental load of shit.

I couldn’t agree with this more. I’m a product of a combination of my parents’ and my own hard work and choices and I won’t be made to feel guilty for it or apologise for it.

Also not everyone who goes skiing is MC. My dB who is as rough as a badger's behind goes skiing every year. He earns £19k and roughs it in a dodgy hotel in Bulgaria.

Oh OP - im from a middle class background but not "monied" (parents were more like you, both first in their families to go to higher education and didn't have the leg ups either so didn't have it to give to me and db).

However, I have realised some careers that require very high academic qualifications and hard work, yet relatively low pay, are only possible for those who have family money or have married someone who earns significantly more. The difference isn't always obvious when you first join the industry because the entry level salaries aren't that vastly different to entry level salaries friends who have picked other careers are getting post uni. By 26/27 the big differences become obvious.

I would say cut your losses and look at better paying industries. You might find higher paid industries with similar academic requirements have more people like you.

StepAwayFromGoogling

If this thread was reversed and this was someone middle class looking down their noses at someone who was working class, people would be all over it. But it's OK the other way round is it? Who are you all to mock other people's hobbies and lifestyles? What business of yours is it if they chose to go skiing or riding? Or spend their money on holidays? FFS. Judgemental load of shit.
............
I agree, it's very snobbish whichever way it goes.

I agree and lots of working class people used to become models or actors. Now nepotism ensures that mainly the off-spring of the rich and famous pick up this work.

I don’t think it is their hobbies that the Op objects to but that she is being excluded by their subtle bullying.

@StepAwayFromGoogling

If this thread was reversed and this was someone middle class looking down their noses at someone who was working class, people would be all over it. But it's OK the other way round is it? Who are you all to mock other people's hobbies and lifestyles? What business of yours is it if they chose to go skiing or riding? Or spend their money on holidays? FFS. Judgemental load of shit.

Its her business when a group of people uses very expensive and privileged networking opportunities to build connections and job opportunities which exclude those who can't access those networking sessions.

In fact its everyone's business when organisations shut out talent in favour of self perpetuating croneyism.

Well said @C8H10N4O2

It’s not just about having a loan to do a PhD though is it. Where are you going to live and how will your rent and other living expenses be paid.
If you have a nice comfortable house and parents who don’t need you to contribute it is soooo much easier to do.

We are not supposed to notice or comment on inequality and all the ways it is perpetuated. To do so is having a chip on your shoulder, or reverse snobbishness.

The dismissiveness on this thread is sadly unsurprising. I’ve been peripherally involved with the publishing industry in a very small way and found most of those I interacted with to be
a) oxford educated from well-off backgrounds
and
b) oblivious to the fact that the world they move in is incredibly rarefied and ultra-privileged.

None of them I came across were intentionally mean, but our lives has been so different that there were very few points of contact. I went to a comprehensive with 400 pupils in in my yeargroup. I’m sure I met more working class people in a week there than some of them had met in a lifetime.

It was deeply frustrating, partly because they all know how to behave in those circles and I don’t. I was watching The Crown about the Balmoral Test and could see a lot of parallells. There’s an extent to which you can play along, or keep your head down, but I don’t think I’d ever be fully comfortable.

@StepAwayFromGoogling

If this thread was reversed and this was someone middle class looking down their noses at someone who was working class, people would be all over it. But it's OK the other way round is it? Who are you all to mock other people's hobbies and lifestyles? What business of yours is it if they chose to go skiing or riding? Or spend their money on holidays? FFS. Judgemental load of shit.

While I don't advocate sneering at anyone, given the MC are advantaged over the WC in almost every aspect of life; typically hold far more power, influence and societal resources then those less privileged than themselves, and have access to opportunities that many WC people will never enjoy, I really don't think they need you charging to their rescue to be honest.

You don't have to be matching these types of peoples lifestyles at all. They can become like sheep if they all have to do the same things as eachother.. If you like your job and are happy there, it matters not what other people do.. Class has nothing to do with how you go about your life.