To not fit in because I'm working class

[Shadowmallow]

I'm from a working class background and I grew up with little money. I did very well academically and managed to go to a top uni and get a good degree, despite not feeling like I belonged. I've worked hard for 15 years to establish my career in a competitive industry with no financial support, which has resulted in a lot of stress and debt over the years.

I work in an industry that's generally full of wealthy, middle class people who dont seem to have any anxieties about life or financial limits (despite the salaries not being that much). I've recently started a new job and feel really out of place, like I do at every job. My colleagues have very different lifestyles and conversation topics to me. Eg. House renovations, skiing holidays, private schooling, second homes in Europe. I'm 36 and 'still' rent a small flat with a friend, which seems to surprise and provoke pity amongst my colleagues. Most had property bought for them/got deposits from their parents years ago and speak like this is standard practice. I rarely go on holidays and don't have any expensive hobbies as I've been trying to save for a house deposit for many years.

To get to this point in my career I've really struggled financially and mentally and I'm pretty tired. I dont feel like im seen on the same page as everyone else at work and think it also affects my career progression. I just wonder if I can ever belong here.

@NellyBarney

First of all, be proud of yourself. Secondly, take the long view. Many of your colleagues had help from their parents. If you choose to have children, you will hopefully be able to give them more support/advice than your parents were able, and so on. You also don't seem to be in a relationship/marriage. From a financial perspective, there is a huge advantage to having a two income household.

I'm in a long term relationship but we don't live together. We can't afford to buy together and better off financially staying where we both are than rent together too.

And just to add, even if someone's parents helped them with a house deposit, that doesn't mean that they are continually receiving handouts from their parents forever and ever. Having a bit of help with a lump sum for a deposit is not the same as having your parents finance your life, or inheriting huge amounts of cash to live off

@flounfer, I didn't say that you said it was representative. I assume your neighbours with their 3 London homes by the age of 30 are in the vast minority. The OP said that neither she nor her colleagues have particularly well paid jobs, so they are very unlikely to be their neighbours. Despite most MNetters claiming that everyone they know got houses bought for them, the statistics do not match. These people are in the minority.

I think the poster above who made the point about finding common ground was spot on- a book, a film ... I also think you might be hearing more than is going on. We have a second property, a flat we bought in the boom and couldn't sell. We bought a very cheap house (just over 100k euro) and rent out the flat. The people who speak of skiing might have gone once as a trip of a lifetime. And you dont know who got help from parents, maybe only one or two did while others nodded along. My sil used to have the biggest chip about me growing up middle class. They were poor growing up and every comment she made was 'I bet you never had to x.' She didn't believe the first time I went abroad was as a teenager or that we didn't have bikes, rolled her eyes when I said we didn't get the toys they did as kids and laughed when I told her we had the same car and said ours must have been new. I felt shit all the time around her, laughing and rolling her eyes and talking about me not having a clue. They did have a different life- first time I experienced money issues was as a married adult and they lived on 2 parents on minimum wage, 1 pt. I acknowledged this but was trying to show her there wasn't the difference she thought there was. She's gotten well over it and we get on great now. Try and stop reading things into things that don't matter when you're in work. You've worked hard and are on a similar wage

Just to add to the above, I don't think you're being over-sensitive as such, but something jumped out at me up thread - one person said "mimic" and there's something to be said for that.

My daughter went skiing recently (sorry!) and accidentally ended up on a red slope and got scared. I asked her what happened/did she cry, and she said yes, she had a bit of a cry, but it was hidden behind her mask, so nobody saw, and in the end it was fine because she just copied the people who were better skiers than her. It seemed like such a great analogy for, well, LOTS of things in life!

You say your colleagues have a lot of "soft skills" that they learned growing up, right? Learn and copy them too.

A friend started work somewhere where everyone skied regularly and went as a group, and he had never been and didn't want to make a show of himself, or say "I can't ski.". So he booked a cheap trip on his OWN to learn in private for a slightly scary and intense week, and then next time the "Oh Dan... we were just talking about Chamonix this year... do you ski?" conversation happened at lunch, he was able to say "yes, I do". And he went with the group that winter and it was fine.

I know you're saving for a house, but some of these things qualify as investments in your career progression. Not buying a horse and having kids so that you can send them to Harrow, but look around at the things people do to fit in, from the chocolate they have on their desks to the places they go on their holidays.

If you WANT to fit in, look at where you can blend (without having to spend £100k!).

Also, get 6 sessions a career coach who knows your industry. I promise it will help. Seriously. You colleagues might have has this kind of support organically growing up, but you can 100% pay for it and get it now. You sound very much like you need a mentor who staddles that professional/how you feel inside divide.

your neighbours.

I think you have a chip on your shoulder and you are exaggerating the difference.
Most people nowadays have not had things 'given' to them by their parents. And also, you need to remember that people seem to lead luxurious lives but scratch below the surface and they have zero savings!
I also think what you describe is more age difference than class difference (schools, house renovations etc are typical of people in their late 30s'40s).
Am also a bit surprised at the vast discrepancy between their income (private schools etc) and yours - ie surprised they can afford quite that much luxury when you seem to have very little. Do you not even go on holiday? Or nice restaurants? See films? You could talk about all of these?

@ladycarlotta

Disturbed by how many replies minimise your feelings or place the blame on you as if you are just being chippy or negative. Particularly outrageous the posters asking whether this career is for you if you object to working alongside the privileged!

It is reasonable to notice and be troubled by these differences, and particularly the detrimental effect being an 'outsider' has had on your career and your lifestyle. But, you have also done an amazing thing. And I don't know what your industry is but it needs you - it needs more working class people, more first gen immigrants, more POC, etc etc etc. It's shitty to be the one leading the charge, especially if the culture really hasn't changed, but also you really deserve to be there, and you are making a path for the next generation which will hopefully be more diverse. The labour of altering the status quo should absolutely not be your responsibility, but your presence there is very valuable nonetheless. Good luck, OP, you are important.

Thank you. I'm surprised too, I have no animosity or jealousy and not saying my colleagues are wrong for being wealthy at all. I have made some great friends from all sorts of backgrounds through work. I'm just acknowledging that this is the way things seem to be. I'm not trying to fit in or desperate to be accepted into these circles. I'm just aware there are differences that can be awakward to navigate at work, isolating and limiting.

@seekinglondonlife

I assume your neighbours with their 3 London homes by the age of 30 are in the vast minority.

I'm completely aware of that. However that bubble exists which is the privilege the OP is referring too about her colleagues.

Despite most MNetters claiming that everyone they know got houses bought for them, the statistics do not match.

I'm not sure who has claimed that, certainly not me but assistance from the bank of mum & dad is very real.

@GeneLovesJezebel

I think you need to stop looking for class differences, it really doesn’t matter any more. Just be yourself. Were you like this at Uni, comparing yourself to others ?

It really does still matter actually.

It sounds like the work culture isn't for you, perhaps consider a different organisation? Why aren't you invited to things though, do you let the fact you're very aware of their different upbringing factor into how you engage with them?

@Shadowmallow

Oh please don’t do that thing where the OP is super super defensive and ignores every single piece of advice except the one that reinforces what they believe. Please don’t.

Most of the people on this thread grew up working-class. I know I grew up in a working-class home. We are trying to help you . People are not ignoring you and they’re not dismissing you but you’re frustrated and you are used to not being heard and so your tendency is to shut down and not listen to people.

The reality is that you cannot afford to live with your partner, you cannot afford to live by yourself. Your real issue isn’t that you’re working class, it’s like you’re in a really low paying profession. Plenty of working class people share homes with their partners. Plenty of working class people go on holiday. Plenty of working class people have adventures. I just don’t think this is a class issue. I think this is a you issue. You have decided how working class people should live and are treated and it has combined with your low self-esteem.

One of the biggest disadvantages of being working class is lacking something called social capital. it’s not about connections or going to the golf clubs, it’s about knowing what kind of professions are out there and knowing what kind of opportunities around there and being able to exploit them. A smart working class kid may go into a low paying career and may end up working in the lowest rung in that career because they haven’t got a friend or an uncle who can tell them that there is a much better high-paying job with the same skills that they could be in.

My guess is that this is what you are doing. My guess is that this is a dead end career that only extremely wealthy people can afford to do because it’s crappily paid and working-class people won’t bother to do it because there’s a much better use for their skills. Like publishing!

Tell us what your profession is and we can probably help you get into a job that gets you the life you want.

OP I knew you would get a lot of the answers you have. Chip on your shoulder means you recognise the differences. The truth is we are supposed to pretend if we work hard and smart enough that everyone will be the same. It is not true.

I am surrounded by middle-class friends who all seem to be at the moment buying holiday homes. They talk of the competition for nice holiday homes with one pleased she had secured the last house someone had actually lived in on a much sought after seaside village.

Well off people constantly underplay how much help they get and the difference it makes. Inheritances are common and expected. Financial gifts are also fairly common. Whereas DP and I have worked for every penny we own since we ;left school.

My honest advice is to try and find friends in the same boat. It helps to have friends who understand. And accept you will feel out of place amongst the people you work with who haven't a fucking clue what they are talking about when it comes to this.

You've done amazing for yourself so give yourself some praise :)
unfortunately, we will always experience judgemental people.. privileged people have no concept of anyone outside of their bubble, so you do your thing, do you work and if the workplace is too toxic just try to look elsewhere for your own sanity.

The middle class posters here need to realise that social class has long last effects. It doesn’t matter if you’re all on the same wage - MC people are given house deposits etc which means that they never have to worry about saving up for a house, car, house renovations etc. Mummy and daddy just throw money at them even when they’re adults.

It sounds like you have done very well. I would concentrate on moving to better paid work as despite your top university etc you seem to have ended up in work that does not pay enough. Put that at the top of your priorities.

Having a bit of help with a lump sum for a deposit is not the same as having your parents finance your life, or inheriting huge amounts of cash to live off

It's not the same but it can be a huge help. My deposit & being able to live at home rent free meant I could get on the housing earlier. This has resulted in me benefiting from asset inflation & I now have 350k plus equity

@soootiredddd

And just to add, even if someone's parents helped them with a house deposit, that doesn't mean that they are continually receiving handouts from their parents forever and ever. Having a bit of help with a lump sum for a deposit is not the same as having your parents finance your life, or inheriting huge amounts of cash to live off

It's more than most people get though.

You can't say you did it all by yourself.

The thing about having a massive chip on your shoulder is that you will always find people online who will defend you and will stoke up your resentment but the question is do you want to be happy and do you want to have a good life?

If you do, take the advice of people who want to help you rather than the people who want you to stay stuck in misery.

There is no professional job that after 15 years experience, you cannot afford to live alone in London. It doesn’t exist. You may not be able to buy but you should be able to afford £1100 a month to rent a one bedroom or studio. Even jobs like teaching and social work present the opportunity to make great money after 15 years.

@soootiredddd neither DP nor I have received any financial gifts since we were 18 years old. Do you really think we have the same experiences as you?

[quote bluedodecagon]@Shadowmallow

Oh please don’t do that thing where the OP is super super defensive and ignores every single piece of advice except the one that reinforces what they believe. Please don’t.

Most of the people on this thread grew up working-class. I know I grew up in a working-class home. We are trying to help you . People are not ignoring you and they’re not dismissing you but you’re frustrated and you are used to not being heard and so your tendency is to shut down and not listen to people.

The reality is that you cannot afford to live with your partner, you cannot afford to live by yourself. Your real issue isn’t that you’re working class, it’s like you’re in a really low paying profession. Plenty of working class people share homes with their partners. Plenty of working class people go on holiday. Plenty of working class people have adventures. I just don’t think this is a class issue. I think this is a you issue. You have decided how working class people should live and are treated and it has combined with your low self-esteem.

One of the biggest disadvantages of being working class is lacking something called social capital. it’s not about connections or going to the golf clubs, it’s about knowing what kind of professions are out there and knowing what kind of opportunities around there and being able to exploit them. A smart working class kid may go into a low paying career and may end up working in the lowest rung in that career because they haven’t got a friend or an uncle who can tell them that there is a much better high-paying job with the same skills that they could be in.

My guess is that this is what you are doing. My guess is that this is a dead end career that only extremely wealthy people can afford to do because it’s crappily paid and working-class people won’t bother to do it because there’s a much better use for their skills. Like publishing!

Tell us what your profession is and we can probably help you get into a job that gets you the life you want.[/quote]
I think some of what you've said is a bit harsh but your opinion is appreciated. And you're spot on with the profession. I work in publishing.

I cant afford to buy because all my money goes on housing and bills, whereas my counterparts don't worry about that because a lot of them were mortgage free at 30 somehow... Almost all of their income is disposable so they're able to have a variety of interests, leisure activities and travels.

And I don't know what your industry is but it needs you - it needs more working class people, more first gen immigrants, more POC, etc etc etc. It's shitty to be the one leading the charge, especially if the culture really hasn't changed, but also you really deserve to be there, and you are making a path for the next generation which will hopefully be more diverse
Leading the charge?!! Fhs, she's a bit miserable about her status at work and all of a sudden she's an Amazonian going into battle. Phew.

@PinkNails1

The middle class posters here need to realise that social class has long last effects. It doesn’t matter if you’re all on the same wage - MC people are given house deposits etc which means that they never have to worry about saving up for a house, car, house renovations etc. Mummy and daddy just throw money at them even when they’re adults.

Depends what you mean by 'middle class'. Not all middle class people are wealthy and not all working class, poor. Each class encompasses a wide range of incomes. I'm not a sociologist but even I know that. I've been around working and middle class people all my life and they are all different, the differences not necessarily class related.

People who are so class conscious that they either look down on people or feel inferior to or intimidated by, people have a problem. I wonder if they ever have real friends.

There is also working class snobbery: my mother was a typical example of that. I can look back now and find it quite funny but when I was growing up her sniffy attitude, dreadful fake voice in some circumstances and rules about what was done and not done, made life difficult (not to say often highly embarrassing), for an ordinary girl like me who treated everyone the same and just wanted to be herself. Mum had good points of course, could be lovely.

The op will be all right, she is just unhappy in her working environment at the moment and dissatisfied in other respects but things will change for her. Nothing stays quite the same forever.

Haven’t RTFT so apologies if I’m repeating but OP instead of focusing on class focus on your achievements.

@GeneLovesJezebel

I think you need to stop looking for class differences, it really doesn’t matter any more. Just be yourself. Were you like this at Uni, comparing yourself to others ?

But if conversation is about things the OP can't talk about, and her living situation means they react with surprise and pity, it kind of DOES matter. I get you, OP. I grew up working-class, in terms of both having no money and 'cultural' things like watching ITV and not being expected to go to uni, and when I did get to uni and met middle-class people for the first time it definitely set me apart. I'm older now and basically live a middle-class life, but there are still these differences and I'm always at least slightly aware that I'm not really 'one of them'.