Aibu to wonder what Russia is up to in Ireland..

[Chamomiltea]

Reading this was a shock, given recent events... www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2022/0310/1285699-russian-embassy-orwell-road-irish-government/

So what happened between 2015 when the planning permission was granted and 2020?

What has actually been built, or not?

And has there been an investigation into who/why the pp was granted in the first place?

In regard to the Orwell Rd, it falls under two council jurisdictions. On one side street names are decided by plebiscite, the other council decides these things by a committee.

@Puppalicious

If Putin gets his way and Ukraine is partitioned, with one side called Ukraine, and the other (Russian controlled) part called Eastern Ukraine, would posters here have a go when those in the Eastern Ukraine struggled to use Ukraine in a way that excluded where they lived? I do always use Ireland when in (RO)Ireland, but when in NI, intuitively, it always needs a distinguisher. Usually, down South, in the South, or….Donegal….Those posters who regularly derail threads like this forget that originally in the Constitution, which called the state Ireland, it was referred to all 32 counties. The country was not renamed when the claim to the 6 counties was relinquished, maybe it should have been?

I've no issue with "down south" or "in the south" They're geographical descriptors. It's the deliberate use of the term Southern Ireland that is offensive. It's a refusal to recognise Ireland as a separate entity.

British people using Eire when speaking English is just as bad. Firstly, people don't refer to Germany as Deutchland in English so referring to Ireland as Éire in English is also wrong. Secondly, they don't spell it correctly and the word Eire means load or burden. The fada matters.

If someone doesn't want to use the term Ireland, ROI is another, equally acceptable, term.

@MargaretBall

Just to correct you there DawnNative, the written constitution of Ireland states in clear English that "the name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Doesn’t really matter how you double down on this, it’s there in black and white and has meaning and intent. There’s a long documented history of this but even a quick google on Wikipedia explains.There are official conventions /guides on how to address countries for a reason, it’s to avoid offence. Ireland is absolutely not unique in this - lots of other countries have complicated histories and relationships and what ‘shorthand’ you choose to call another country can be loaded with intent.

You're correcting me on nothing at all as your post bears little relevance to what I'm saying.

"Ireland" has always been used to convey a territorial claim over Northern Ireland from the DeValera Government onwards.

Yet there's a significant number of Irish Republicans who logically assert that the ROI is NOT Ireland because Ireland is the entire island. And the ROI is not the entire island. That's a logical argument.

Hence, most of us in Northern Ireland do not call the south "Ireland". We're NOT one country and calling it "Ireland" does make outsiders think they are.

Which has been the purpose of the south since DeValera.

Much like how the majority of countries in the Americas do NOT like the US being referred to as America.

Most people do not use official names if states.

They use America for the United States even though its the United States that is the official name.

They use China even though People's Republic of China is the official name.

They use Taiwan even though the official name is Republic of China.

They use Australia even though Commonwealth of Australia is the official name.

The practice extends to contested areas too.

Well unless all the GB people you meet are speaking Irish , DownNative, or a member of an organisation that uses Irish as an official language, you are misleading them and setting them up for future embarrassment when they inadvertently cause offence. It’s not unique as I’ve stated - look up the use of the name Macedonia for another example.

Jesus @DownNative I've rarely seen so much wrong as everything you've said in your "patiently explaining why Irish people are wrong and you alone have the correct knowledge" manner.

"The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland".. doesn't mean "the name of the state is Éire and it's ok to say that if you don't speak English". It's phrased that way around because it's a translation of the law and the Irish language version has supremacy. That means a less literal translation (if it was written with the English language as primary) would say "The name of the State is Ireland and in the Irish language, Éire."

And this is just outrageous:
Using "Ireland" for the southern state was always meant to confuse outsiders, to promote a united Ireland and to act as though the island itself isn't divided into two separate, distinct parts.

It was never "meant to confuse outsiders". That's not how countries select their own names. Ireland has always been Ireland, and the fact of invasion, plantation and occupation didn't change that. It had a name and a national identity of irishness long before Elizabeth I and the plantation of Ulster. Why should a country which has finally reclaimed its independence have to change its own name because partition was the price of home rule? Ireland is no less Ireland just because it had to surrender six counties.

If you take a chunk of Wales in the east and give it over to administration by the government in England, should the rest of Wales lose the right to be called "Wales", so nobody gets confused between Wales and the English county of East Wales?

CyranoCyrano said:

Seems pretty transparent what you are trying to do too re the ‘southern state’

What, point out the political reality?

By the way, "southern state" is a descriptor and not used by me as a name. It's basic English, you know.

I call the southern state "Republic of Ireland", ROI or "the South". All of that is very different from "Southern Ireland" which is itself an incorrect noun.

I also call Northern Ireland the "northern state" which is what it is just like the ROI is the "southern state".

Out of interest, how does the Russian Embassy in Dublin compare in size with the US Embassy?

Sorry, DownNative, I think you're misleading them there. There is a bit of a history associated with its use, unfortunately. And the constitution was referring to its use in Irish too.

And I don't know if you missed a little document called the Good Friday Agreement- it's only 35 pages and dates from 1998, so you may have missed it if you weren't paying attention.

One effect of that little agreement was that the territorial "island of Ireland" claim was abandoned by the Irish government and more notably by the people of Ireland who voted by a majority to change the constitution to recognise that Ireland means 26 counties, and it became law.

That's why the British government moved away from using "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland" and agreed to recognise the name of the state properly.

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

And I don't know if you missed a little document called the Good Friday Agreement- it's only 35 pages and dates from 1998, so you may have missed it if you weren't paying attention.

One effect of that little agreement was that the territorial "island of Ireland" claim was abandoned by the Irish government and more notably by the people of Ireland who voted by a majority to change the constitution to recognise that Ireland means 26 counties, and it became law.

That's why the British government moved away from using "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland" and agreed to recognise the name of the state properly.

Agreed.

@DownNative - Despite the change in the ROI constitution, many citizens in the Republic continue to insist on the old, outdated territorial claim over Northern Ireland. This is seen in the name they use - "Ireland".

I think we're all pretty clear in Ireland as to what we are referring to. Ireland is the country which consists of 26 counties, the island of Ireland is the whole island.

Hence, it's pretty inappropriate to call the southern state "Ireland" which I don't.

That's fine. The Republic of Ireland is also perfectly acceptable.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous some ROI posters assert that it's Éire only if one is speaking Gaelic. This convention doesn't exist anywhere else in the world and anyone can continue to call it Éire if they wish

So can I assume that you also call Italy Italia or Spain España when speaking in English? It comes across as a bit ridiculous. Also, the fact that most British (it's only ever British people) people who use the term, leave out the fada and use Eire, which means burden or load and is not the name of the country in any language.

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

Jesus *@DownNative* I've rarely seen so much wrong as everything you've said in your "patiently explaining why Irish people are wrong and you alone have the correct knowledge" manner.

"The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland".. doesn't mean "the name of the state is Éire and it's ok to say that if you don't speak English". It's phrased that way around because it's a translation of the law and the Irish language version has supremacy. That means a less literal translation (if it was written with the English language as primary) would say "The name of the State is Ireland and in the Irish language, Éire."

And this is just outrageous:
Using "Ireland" for the southern state was always meant to confuse outsiders, to promote a united Ireland and to act as though the island itself isn't divided into two separate, distinct parts.

It was never "meant to confuse outsiders". That's not how countries select their own names. Ireland has always been Ireland, and the fact of invasion, plantation and occupation didn't change that. It had a name and a national identity of irishness long before Elizabeth I and the plantation of Ulster. Why should a country which has finally reclaimed its independence have to change its own name because partition was the price of home rule? Ireland is no less Ireland just because it had to surrender six counties.

If you take a chunk of Wales in the east and give it over to administration by the government in England, should the rest of Wales lose the right to be called "Wales", so nobody gets confused between Wales and the English county of East Wales?

Aaargh I meant "doesn't mean "the name of the State is Éire and it's ok to say that if you only speak English".

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

And I don't know if you missed a little document called the Good Friday Agreement- it's only 35 pages and dates from 1998, so you may have missed it if you weren't paying attention.

One effect of that little agreement was that the territorial "island of Ireland" claim was abandoned by the Irish government and more notably by the people of Ireland who voted by a majority to change the constitution to recognise that Ireland means 26 counties, and it became law.

That's why the British government moved away from using "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland" and agreed to recognise the name of the state properly.

That doesn’t fit with @DownNative agenda here!

@DownNative

Vis a vis "occupied 6". This is something I simply ignored as it's ahistorical and pretty transparent what the poster was trying to do.

Adults can ignore such things, you know.

Most people don't use official names if countries. They use popular shorthand.

Fine to use popular shorthand. Not fine to use a term offensive to the population of the country you are referring to.

[quote Chamomiltea]On a brighter note, it looks like the name of the road that the Russian embassy is on will be changing… www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/russian-embassys-street-in-dublin-may-be-renamed-independent-ukraine-road-1271636.html[/quote]
Excellent. Perhaps! we can follow the Irish lead and rename (just the portion) of the street which the Russian embassy is on in London Putin is a W*er Place?

it's Éire only if one is speaking Gaelic

Gaelic is spoken in Scotland. Irish people speak Irish or Gaeilge.

The prejudice against the Irish that you see here on every thread is ridiculous.

Hence, most of us in Northern Ireland do not call the south "Ireland". We're NOT one country and calling it "Ireland" does make outsiders think they are.

Does it?

@DownNative - Most people do not use official names if states

And most people don't use a term for a country that they know causes offence. But there you go.

I wonder if @DownNative has any good traybake recipes......

Or whether @DownNative can confirm that North Down residents do indeed eat 'Tayto Smashies'?

Trust me, I understand very clearly what you are saying . However , whatever way you put it, Ireland is the legal, recognised, formal, constitutional etc etc name of the Irish state . Republic of Ireland is a description - as in its a republic , it’s Ireland . Sovereign nations usually get to decide what they call themselves, or in the case of Macedonia reach a compromise to try to move on from historic animosity. If a poster wilfully persisted in using Macedonia in a discussion about geo politics instead of the Republic of north Macedonia, their sympathies would be clear. South of Ireland is a geographical reference is you are referring to Cork. Otherwise, in a political discussion , it speaks in volumes. As does using Eire . Or the six counties instead of Northern Ireland .Using names incorrectly either deliberately or inadvertently can cause offence. Context is everything. It’s very clear to me that you actually understand the historic context well but persist with misnaming for your own purpose.

P.s. Southern Ireland is generally not considered an acceptable term to refer the the country of Ireland

Thank you @OchonAgusOchonOh.

Not Irish, but it really annoys me when people do that. It reduces a sovereign state to the status of a region imo.