To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

There is no such country as "the Ukraine."

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I think Ukraine were unofficially promised certain things that sure as fuck haven't materialised.

I think so too. I keep thinking about that thing the Ukrainian ambassador said before the invasion, and how he backtracked after that, and I think they were promised more and encouraged towards the membership and it all blew in their/everybody's faces.

Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008 (www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm)

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.

These words were included at the insistence of the US apparently, The Georgians believed that they were being encouraged to take on Russia, which ended badly.

@KikiSB

You have read the comments on this thread and single me out to be your Russian bot?

Ukraine wasn't in the state of civil war. The fact that Putin send fighters without flags on their camo isn't changing a fact that it was a beginning. And that world said nothing.

Also, nice dose of hypocrisy (and comparing Ukraine to Sweden, like...no it beyond ignorance it's just ridiculous).

Russia was in Afghanistan, Russia is in Syria.
Shall we talk about Chechnya? What Putin did to instigate the second and third war.
But first you need to know that such country even exists.

On the other hand, there have been a steady stream of refugees to Russia since 2014, from former state artists of Ukraine who were stripped of their status for refusing to denounce Russia, to ordinary families who arrived from Donetsk, Lugansk and so on, in some numbers. I met a fair few personally, or I wouldn't have known of them.

The world also said nothing about them.

That's because the world doesn't give a monkey's about Ukraine really. Soon it will have moved onto the next rolling news item.

A few years back, the media were denouncing Ukraine for its racism and politics, and urging fans to boycott the Euros (e.g. www.theguardian.com/football/2012/may/28/euro-2012-ukraine-sol-campbell , apologies, the writer of this is an utter PoS).

Today we are all dressing up in yellow and blue to show how much we care (and I don't petsonally buy it).

Tomorrow there'll be something else.

@ABitBesotted, what’s wrong with Luke Harding?

@ABitBesotted

On the other hand, there have been a steady stream of refugees to Russia since 2014, from former state artists of Ukraine who were stripped of their status for refusing to denounce Russia, to ordinary families who arrived from Donetsk, Lugansk and so on, in some numbers. I met a fair few personally, or I wouldn't have known of them.

The world also said nothing about them.

That's because the world doesn't give a monkey's about Ukraine really. Soon it will have moved onto the next rolling news item.

A few years back, the media were denouncing Ukraine for its racism and politics, and urging fans to boycott the Euros (e.g. www.theguardian.com/football/2012/may/28/euro-2012-ukraine-sol-campbell , apologies, the writer of this is an utter PoS).

Today we are all dressing up in yellow and blue to show how much we care (and I don't petsonally buy it).

Tomorrow there'll be something else.

Why's that journalist a POS? That article is from 2012. Ukraine are at least 2 presidents further on from where they were then.

@deragod

Ukraine wasn't in the state of civil war. The fact that Putin send fighters without flags on their camo isn't changing a fact that it was a beginning. And that world said nothing.

Also, nice dose of hypocrisy (and comparing Ukraine to Sweden, like...no it beyond ignorance it's just ridiculous).

Russia was in Afghanistan, Russia is in Syria.
Shall we talk about Chechnya? What Putin did to instigate the second and third war.
But first you need to know that such country even exists.

There has been a civil war in Donbas since 2014. If you google footage, you will see decent mainstream reports showing horrendous trenches, destruction, wasteland, constant gun attacks, horrendous living situations, still going on before these attacks started. So most definitely yes, civil war.

Ukraine had no troops to speak of at the start, but has been armed to the teeth by the US. In Crimea you have the neo nazis being given weapons, fighting, training up children. Civil war is the right way to describe it.

In relation to Afghanistan, again, if you look into it you will see similarities with the games played by the US, encouraging Afghanistan into war, supplying weapons, making promises and then leaving them to it.

Chechnya - why do you think that people don't know the country exists? it might be that Russia sees Ukraine as a similar situation if this goes on much longer, and put a different person in as president.

All good reasons for ending this current war with negotation, not sanctions. Where i live there have been diesel and petrol price increases by 25 - 50 percent, locals cannot afford it. Why are people going along with this blindly? It is not as though leadership was impressive through covid, so why the accepting trust now, as our lives get wrecked? That is @Papertyger too

@parabalabalabala the situation with thugs and neonazis is a lot worse today (ie before the war) than it was back in 2012.

@notimagain

In the context of what is going on right now, in Ukraine , it absolutely is utter whataboutery.

If charging Blair, Obama etc with “war crimes” right now would stop the Russians today then maybe it would be worth doing, but it won’t.

I don't think it is whataboutery at all, because awareness affects public opinion, significant public opinion affects what decisions world leaders make.

Even though those people would not now be charged realistically, awareness of what happened is relevant.

My god!
Russia flies 200 sorties a day!
Ukraine , 10.

[quote MissConductUS]@wotnogas, I think it's very naive to assume that the Russians are negotiating in good faith. Their original plan was to seize the airports around Kyiv, fly in troops, execute depose the current leaders and install a puppet government. The only reason they are even pretending to negotiate is because of military resistance and sanctions. If you take those things away they'll just go back to their original plan.[/quote]
Sanctions have not helped at all, quite clearly.

It is possible Russia suggested negotiation on day 2 because of pressure from China and India.

But with more and more sanctions, which Russia sees as "economic war" things are now more entrenched.

Russia made an offer on day 2 or 3, Zelensky did not accept it, was closer to it a couple of days ago, but is now just focused on air space thinking that no harm will come of it, for the sake of breakaway regions and NATO the war continues.

People near me will not be able to cope financially with the diesel and petrol hikes.

Neither you or I can know for sure what is in people's heads, I am aware of that so I am neither naive or not naive, it is what it is.

I am hacked off that my young dc have been through covid and now this, aren't you?

That article is from 2012. Ukraine are at least 2 presidents further on from where they were then..
The President of Ukraine at the time was Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych. He is apparently waiting in the wings to return and impose a Pro Russian government in Ukraine.
For anyone interested I would really recommend an excellent documentary on Netflix called Winter on Fire. It is at times upsetting to watch but gives a really good insight as to why the Ukrainian people are so determined to not return to that era. I cannot recommend it enough for anyone interested in what is happening in Ukraine.

Wot no gas I always appreciate different view points on a thread

I think people are becoming upset because Putin has been threatening these people for years and has now crossed the line and "invaded them" .
They entrenched from day 1 when they started to shoot and shell people and this isn't the first time.

We couldn't stand by yet again and aid him by being passive.
We couldn't!

If he hadn't rolled his tanks in we wouldn't have this thread.

Also did you expect sanctions to stop him immediately?

It's" pressure" applied all around him to force his hand.
( Hopefully not toward the button)

We’re allowing Putin to get away with horrendous crimes against humanity because we’re scared that doing the right thing may invoke a “World War”. This is how Putin has gotten away with, gets away with and will continue to get away with it. He’s a bully, who has no care for human life - just his ego and image.

Doing the right thing isn’t supposed to be easy if it was, everyone would do it. I know many people disagree but I think we (as in the U.K. not necessarily NATO) need to do what we know is right.

Btw I totally think Putin is the type to launch nukes but lucky for the rest of the world, he doesn’t actually get to press the button - there is a chain. I think those in high positions wouldn’t want a nuclear holocaust as much as the next person, what would be the point? No one wins.

According to twitter we have aided Ukraine with starteakers? Apparently an extremely effective peice of technology that will shoot down planes.
Hard to work without know how, but a good way of getting around the no fly zone.

@ABitBesotted
Thank you for pointing this out. Ukraine comes from the word ‘borderlands’. So if you say ‘the’ then you are referring to Ukraine as ‘The Borderlands’. They are now a country in their own right, not the borderlands of Russia.

It’s a small thing but important. Similar to how it’s important to spell Kyiv the correct Ukrainian way, rather than the Russian Kiev.

Yes he does because he ain’t getting it.

Having been fighting Russia for 8 years, why haven’t they armed themselves better? I don’t understand that.

@Papertyger

According to twitter we have aided Ukraine with starteakers? Apparently an extremely effective peice of technology that will shoot down planes. Hard to work without know how, but a good way of getting around the no fly zone.

They probably will have the know how as we have had troops over there training them for the past few years, along with sharing kit.

@Choppingonions

*Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.*

Love it

🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼

I don't know how anyone can look at, say sky news , (not exactly radical) reporting, of russian tanks attacking residential apartments, and stay neutral. What are we telling Putin - essentially that we're afraid you'll use nuclear weapons, so you can do as you want? Until when? What will be the sticking point when we say no? Or will there be any sticking point? How much safety lies in that approach? We're watching the destruction of an independent European country, the murder of its citizens, and we're wringing our hands.

Are we doing anything other than putting off a bigger war - maybe that's a good thing, maybe it'll help us win it, or equally maybe it's the worst thing we could do. I feel we should certainly be apologising to the Ukrainians for standing by and watching the devastation of their country and the murder of their citizens . Maybe we should be apologising to our own kids also for appeasing rather than resolving.

I'm not sure there's any way of knowing what will happen, other than to say that the 21st century seems likely to be much more challenging than the second half of the 20th century was. And that - may be / is - our fault.

And if I'm honest I find it sickening the amount of posters who think that Ukraine should give up and agree to essentially Russian control of a devastated Ukraine, to keep themselves, ie those posters, safe. Would you agree to that, for your own country, for your own children, for the awfulness and restriction of their future lives? Or is it only other less important people who should do that to keep you safe?

@MCLQC

Yes he does because he ain’t getting it.

Having been fighting Russia for 8 years, why haven’t they armed themselves better? I don’t understand that.

Are you one of those posters who come on poverty threads and declare that the solution for the poor is simply to start earning more money? Silly them, did not think of a simple solution.

Ukraine is not badly armed at all, especially given the size of the economy, and the war fatigue. But it is very hard to match Russia who made absolute fortunes on the hydrocarbons, and for the last 20 years or thereabouts have invested most of the proceeds into the military sector.

@wotongas

Just imagine: there is a part of India with big z white British population. One day English troops posing as rebels invides this part of India. It's not a civil war.

War in Moldova wasn't a civil one either.