To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

The bot accusations are tiresome and unoriginal. I love Russia. I love Ukraine. I wish Putin would fuck off to Hawaii and play golf with other warlords like Obama (who bombed more countries with George W Bush).

I am hating the gleeful xenophobia that's run rampant on here since the invasion began.

I agree the bot accusations are distracting @ABitBesotted.

If you're looking Troll entertainment, check out the BTL comments on Russia Today @MissConductUS.

@Saku, for decades Finland has been neutral wrt Russia. In the past week it has changed and now wants to join NATO.

[quote TooBigForMyBoots]@Saku, for decades Finland has been neutral wrt Russia. In the past week it has changed and now wants to join NATO.[/quote]
Sort of. There was a petition on it and now the Finnish legislature have to debate it. The government AFAIK have been careful not to inflame the situation by declaring any desire to join NATO fully.

You have to admire the Finns historically. They drove back the USSR in a "get orf moi land" move but didn't keep pressing further, to the Nazis' great chagrin.

@TooBigForMyBoots

I agree the bot accusations are distracting *@ABitBesotted*.

Posters who are advocating for negotiation and pointing out the dire consequences for millions in relation to the war and continuing and sanctions and who say they are not partisan and who are putting forward both sides of the story and while not defending any military action from any side should NOT NOT NOT be called Russian trolls or bots or anything else like it. It is basically gaslighting and indefensible.

I was agreeing with @ABitBesotted and @TooBigForMyBoots if that wasn't clear!

@Choppingonions

*Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.*

Love it

This is one of the most considered and intelligent responses ever!

@Saku

For those who think Putin will stop at Ukraine, he has already said there would be military consequences for Finland and Sweden if they apply to NATO.

Then they shouldn't apply unless they want to become Ukraine, Syria or Afghanistan .
Why would they? .. they are living happily and life is good there.
(its not called bending to Russia, its called national interest, as other countries are not attacking Russia right now because of national interest). It is US persuading them to join NATO and telling them if you cant join then your freedom is compromised.

Just now found a similarity ....... wherever US meddles, it end up like Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Iraq .. and the list goes on.
It is not difficult to understand why??
If US arms business shut down in one place So it triggers another place to keep it going .. US feeds on this. Other countries and its people are just tool for this.

Completely agree with this. People are speculating that Russia wants Ukraine’s resources, want to recreate the USSR etc but they have repeatedly said they will invade Ukraine if Ukraine brings the US controlled NATO to their doorstep. It was Ukraine’s decision to insist on NATO membership that triggered this war.

Saying that this war started because Putin is insane and has no real reason to invade other than egomania as some pp suggest is too simplistic

Putin wants a land bridge to Crimea, plus the two autonomous regions, and the Black Sea coast. However, he may then decide he wants a land bridge to Kaliningrad, which is a tad more problematic if you look at the geography. If you give an aggressor what they want, will they be happy, or come back for more?

Why would we grant a no fly zone if it meant WW3? Yes it's devastating. But if Ukraine has to fall so the rest of Europe is safe, along with our NATO allied countries... so be it, in the harsh light of day

We're talking one country in exchange for many many more countries aren't we?

@triggery

So you think the information we are being fed from our press/Zelensky/military "experts" is naive ? The old vehicles, the rubbish logistics, untrained soldiers surrendering to the Ukrainians? Zelensky said he had "broken the enemy's plans in a week" Shame he wasn't as quick getting to the negotiating table. I am just going on what they are telling me on the inadequacy of the Russian army

It's not naive, it's naive that you don't seem to realise how much of it is just blatant propaganda

Not that blatant propaganda is always a bad thing it's won the entire western world over to the point we are treating Zelensky like he's sexy jesusand sending over Scottish Grandads buuuuut it's war propaganda. And even if it was true, the price of oil is skyrocketing and russia will still have buyers. Their currency is going down the pan but the people who matter have dollars. They're not just going to vanish away into obscurity for the next 20 years.

I agree with you absolutely about propaganda and the Ukraines are being fantastic with it. But that's it, you can't say on the one hand (paraphrasing) the Russian army is crap whilst on the other say I need you to escalate your support because the Russian army is going to take over the world. That's what we are being fed and my pov is just fuck off to the negotiating table before more people die. They've been at it for 8 years.

Why would we grant a no fly zone if it meant WW3? Yes it's devastating. But if Ukraine has to fall so the rest of Europe is safe, along with our NATO allied countries... so be it, in the harsh light of day

I don’t even think it’s as clear cut as that, a no fly zone isn’t guaranteed to help Ukraine. In fact it could hinder it.

If a no flight zone was guaranteed to win Ukraine the war then it would be a different conversation.
But no fly zones aren’t usually used in war time, they are negotiated to keep the peace.
A no fly zone means no one can fly including the Ukrainians.

People seem to be under the impression that a no fly zone would stop the war, but most of the shelling is happening from the ground. There has not been much air activity which is surprising as the Russians have the capability to do so as seen in other conflicts.
One theory is that because of the geography of Ukraine it would be very easy for a pilot to accidentally stray across a border, which would definitely seen as an act of aggression by NATO.

I don’t believe he is asking for one because he thinks he’s going to get one, I think he’s asking because it keeps the pressure up and because it’s a simple tag line that sounds purely defensive and harmless, so the general public of nato countries will put pressure on their governments to do more. And it’s working.

@TheKeatingFive

So you think the information we are being fed from our press/Zelensky/military "experts" is naive ?

The experts are all saying that Ukraine's going to defeat the Russians and wipe them out for 10 years, are they? Hmm.

Zelensky said he had "broken the enemy's plans in a week"

You can't think of any reason why he'd be talking himself up right now, no?

I do think he is talking himself up. I think we are being fed a load of BS hence my remarks about being told contradictory statements. I appreciate I was being too subtle.

@MoonbeamSprinkles

There has not been much air activity which is surprising as the Russians have the capability to do so as seen in other conflicts.
One theory is that because of the geography of Ukraine it would be very easy for a pilot to accidentally stray across a border, which would definitely seen as an act of aggression by NATO.

Not sure about that theory TBH, if your operating area is eastern Ukraine you’d have to be a bit of dunce, pilot wise, to stay across one of the NATO protected borders.

It’s obviously hard for us to judge what is going on but it’s quite possible:

1. The Ukrainian Air Force lost a lot of it’s capability on day one and we know attacks on airfields in recent days have been reported.

1. The Russians are discovering the hard way how vulnerable their aircraft (fixed wing and rotary) can be at low level to Ukrainian man portable air defence systems (MANPADS) such as Stinger, and Grom and are standing off more or staying at high level more, out of sight of “friendly” cameras.

I’m sure western intelligence have the full picture..

@mowglika

'So, let me tell you a few things about Eastern Europeans and NATO and Russia.

We see NATO in a completely different, and I dare say much more nuanced way. We are not fans of it, and we can agree with you on many, many reasons to criticise it. But when you say “Fuck NATO” or “End NATO expansion”, what I hear is that you do not care about the safety and wellbeing of my Eastern European friends, family and comrades. You are happy to put my mum at risk for cheap political points you would not even be able to act on, you bastards!

When you talk about “expansion”, with everything this word implies, really, you are referring to this process in which Eastern Europe, for the reason of other countries making decisions over our heads in 1945, quite literally tip-toed around Russia petitioning it to allow us do what we wanted to do. Eventually, this resulted in Russia signing something called the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation. This happened in May 1997 and Russia, finally, agreed to what you are now calling “expansion” provided that certain conditions are met. These conditions effectively made us second-class members of NATO, but hey ho, that is all we could get and we went for it. Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary joined NATO in 1999, the Baltic countries followed in 2004. And for now, I want them to stay there, and it doesn’t have much to do with politics tbh. It is a self-preservation instinct, but this is another thing you will just not get. You talk more about “NATO expansion” than you talk about the fact that you are the funding members of it.

Further, you talk about how you desire to stop “NATO expansion” but you don’t really mention what, exactly, would be a viable alternative to it. This is not acceptable at all, it just shows your privilege of growing up in a country where your life story was not littered with, how exciting, tantrums and aggressions of various scales of this great, unpredictable force that assumes it can throw its way anywhere where there is no NATO. So tell me, how exactly will you assure our safety? What is this NATO alternative you are advocating for? Have you considered asking us what we think of it? Or did you just decide, as you did many times in your history, and to many other countries you felt superior towards, that it will be you, and your leaders, who will be setting the cards on the table, and we just need to submit? Did you already take out your ruler to make straight lines on the map, except that this time it will be the map of the place where I grew up?'

Then they shouldn't apply unless they want to become Ukraine, Syria or Afghanistan .
Why would they? ..they are living happily and life is good there.
(its not called bending to Russia, its called national interest, as other countries are not attacking Russia right now because of national interest). It is US persuading them to join NATO and telling them if you cant join then your freedom is compromised.

Either countries are sovereign and free to decide their own way, or they are forever having to do what the colonial masters (in this case Putin) wants. For once, this isn't USA's fault.

you talk about how you desire to stop “NATO expansion” but you don’t really mention what, exactly, would be a viable alternative to it

I think the depressing answer to that is 'pull the ladder up after us and leave Eastern Europe to its fate'. I have Polish heritage and I hear a decided lack of giving a crap, plus a healthy dose of 'coming over here...'.

It is like some British people are obsessed with sovereignty for themselves but happy to give away other countries' sovereignty.

It is like some British people are obsessed with sovereignty for themselves but happy to give away other countries' sovereignty.

Absolutely @MrsTerryPratchett.

It is like some British people are obsessed with sovereignty for themselves but happy to give away other countries' sovereignty.

I see it quite differently (not being British myself, but from the colonies): the British can simply not accept that the sun ever set on that vast empire (hence spectacles like that sable-rattling fool braying about Britain spanking Russian in the Crimean War) and, unable to be relevant/win battles/ empire-build on their own account, have to join in on America's coattails in their bloody and costly wars. Or, in this case, the fights they picked and then backed away from.

Sound bite goodness. What do you mean with regards to UKRAINE's right to request to join NATO if they want?