To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

@MissConductUS

Why, would you ask this question.

She asked because you said something nice about the United States, which immediately makes you suspect on MN.

Thanks, by the way. I'm an American with family members in the military. A South Korean once told me that he was very grateful for the presence of American troops in his country as they acted as a deterrent to their neighbor to the north.

Not true at all, there have been many pro US posts on MN recently. I also have family there and inlaws who are ex US military, and I was delighted when Biden, a democrat, got into office. I see things with shades of grey though, not all good or all bad, and the US has always prided itself on allowing people to question US leaders' decisions, as a cornerstone of democracy, has it not?

I do not understand where people think that this is heading, continuing to supply arms, not negotiate and more and more sanctions.

Where are the 100K troops deployed do you know?

Are foreign people or people whose English is a second language not allowed to post on here? Yes! Lots of people who have English as second language post here! I just wondered where you were from, because I was interested, that is all.

missconduct I just looked at the map in your link - I think you might be mistaken about the 100K or at least, they aren't on "fault lines"? (Please don't take offence that I am saying this, it might be that I have misunderstood, I will look again in the morning)

Oh! There we go, that much mis used word genuine. It has now turned in on itself and when someone says "genuine question", its more like whats called double speak which,

"obscures, disguises or reverses the meaning of words".

Twitter is awash with Orwellian quotes now because of the fork tongue double speak nonsense, eliciting from Russia. Double speak comes from a book called 1984 where the meaning of words is corrupted and mind games are played with devestating consequences.

It does not feel like a "genuine" question to me. It feels sneery and xenophobic. Its cliquey, like saying " who are you? YOU are NOT one of us ". Or its disablist, looking down on people who cannot spell, or do grammar good.

Nope, which ever way I look at comments like that, I cannot see the kind, postive angel. Sorry. Angle.

I said, I am very greatful for the backing and strength of the USA army right now. An army which is holding the thin line between us, ( as in the UK a democractic free country) and despotic, dictatorships.
That is, at cost to the USA financially and also the army is peopled from families, they are humans, in a uniform, manning the lines between South Korea and North Korea, between Taiwan and China and many other places you can google at the tips of your finger tips.

Re my other comments, I am not sure how to re write or phrase them .

The Eu, for instance the Netherlands, Spain, France, Romania, Italy and so on, could not, on their own repel a Putin Invasion. Germany has a run down extremly poorly funded army. They do not have the intellegence skills, nor the co ordination.

The UK by itself could not repel Putin. The UK and the forces of the EU would struggle to fight Putin and other players who may step in to support Putin.

We all need the might and spending power of the USA.
They are with us, right now, flying troops and assests into Poland and other countries and I am very greatful for that.

I do not understand where people think that this is heading, continuing to supply arms, not negotiate and more and more sanctions.

^^ Have you seen the list of people, trying to negotiate and act as a peace keeper with Putin? How many people have spoken to him or tried to in the last two weeks.

I am sorry, I am not buying for one teeny second this faux ignorance.

@wotnogas

missconduct I just looked at the map in your link - I think you might be mistaken about the 100K or at least, they aren't on "fault lines"? (Please don't take offence that I am saying this, it might be that I have misunderstood, I will look again in the morning)

Where are the 100K troops deployed do you know

I never used the term "fault lines", @Papertyger did. US troops deployed abroad are there mostly to deter aggression and bolster local forces. North Korea cannot shell Seoul without attacking US forces so it's a red line. The 100k forces in Europe are mostly in Germany, Italy and the UK, as it states in the Wikipedia article I linked.

If you don't think we should supply arms to Ukraine or sanction Russia economically, what do you think we should do, just leave Ukraine to whatever end Putin has in mind for it?

We all need the might and spending power of the USA. They are with us, right now, flying troops and assests into Poland and other countries and I am very greatful for that.

Thank you very much for that. And you are correct, without the US as a member NATO would be a sitting duck for Putin. The US deployment in Europe is larger than the entire British Army.

The UK by itself could not repel Putin.

I'm not convinced that there is any megalomaniacal despot quite unhinged enough to want this place.

What we need to do is promise china we will forget all about COVID and continue to buyer the rubbish they make. I'm sure they would love to push him back in exchange for us forgetting about them unleashing COVID on the world

I have no idea - do you know? How many US are serving on UN peace keeping operations, who else is serving on UN peace keeping operations and on "fault lines" (and where are the "fault lines?) and where are the US troops? (Would save me having to look it up if you do know!)

peacekeeping.un.org/en/troop-and-police-contributors

If this is to be believed, bugger all. On a par with Canada and nowhere near the UK.

They are deployed as the US but not the UN it looks like.

@vickyc90

What we need to do is promise china we will forget all about COVID and continue to buyer the rubbish they make. I'm sure they would love to push him back in exchange for us forgetting about them unleashing COVID on the world

Do you feel the same way about the Ugandans for Zika, the camels for MERS or us for Mad Cow?

Emergent diseases happen.

What we need to do is arrest Vladimir Putin, try him for war crimes and punish him severely. Use international law to get justice for the Ukrainian, Syrian, Chechen, Georgian, British and Russian lives that he has destroyed.

Putin is a cunt and he looks like this .

Brilliant idea. You grab him TooBig and we'll watch you march him off to The Hague. Let us know when you find him so we can all see you do it.

‘Zelensky needs to’ …. 🙄

Meanwhile Blair, Cameron, May, Bush, Obama etc walk free. How many people have we bombed because Hussein, Milosevic, Osama bin Laden, Gaddafi, Assad etc etc are bad, wicked men doing "war crimes?" Any amount of destruction is thus so casually justified.

There's an excellent book by John Laughland, A History of Political Trials, which shows how every political trial from that of Charles I to Nuremberg to Pinochet has been a showtrial, inept, corrupt, and farcical.

We could try Putin for bombing a hospital, but surely it means nailing Obama for the wanton bombing of the Kunduz charity hospital in Afghanistan. Sorry, that's a "distraction", isn't it? We are such fucking hypocrites and if anyone points it out, it is dubbed "whataboutery."

so, General Melchett, what military strategy would you employ? Write Zelensky a letter, delivered by carrier pigeon, telling him to stop DEMANDING a no-fly zone and put his toys back in the box?
When you are in charge of a country being invaded, come back, please

@wotnogas

I have no idea - do you know? How many US are serving on UN peace keeping operations,

Plenty in the same part of the world as UN peacekeeping Ops, few if any wearing the blue helmet and serving on UN controlled peacekeeping ops

Emergent diseases happen

BSE and the resulting CJD didn't just happen, we were at fault. Greed caused it.

@Papertyger

I do not understand where people think that this is heading, continuing to supply arms, not negotiate and more and more sanctions.

^^ Have you seen the list of people, trying to negotiate and act as a peace keeper with Putin? How many people have spoken to him or tried to in the last two weeks.

I am sorry, I am not buying for one teeny second this faux ignorance.

I have seen your other long post too. I see now that we are quite far apart on ideology. I still don't know what the post I questioned meant. Yes I was being genuine, but if genuine sounds fake to you i can see you would struggle with that.

Have you seen the list of people, trying to negotiate and act as a peace keeper with Putin? How many people have spoken to him or tried to in the last two weeks but not the US, and possibly based on US assurances, Zelensky has until the last couple of days refused to negotiate, saying he wouldn't budge. This has changed slightly in the last couple of days.

Zelensky has now said he would agree to discuss autonomy of Donetsk and Luhansk - which had in fact been discussed and agreed in 2015. So I do think history may judge the continued destruction for the sake of Donetsk and Luhansk. I don't know, but I think so.

Sanctions have made Putin retaliate more and are going to plunge the world into economic crisis. The US has been ploughing weapons into Ukraine for years, enough for total bloodshed in the civil war and the current situation, but not enough to win as that would be impossible. Do you think these were good strategies?

I think the US should be re-thinking strategies.

I hope that negotation will work. I hope that the biased and misleading propaganda coming from every source stops.

@MissConductUS If you don't think we should supply arms to Ukraine or sanction Russia economically, what do you think we should do, just leave Ukraine to whatever end Putin has in mind for it?

Russia is asking for Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent states and for Crimea and for Zelensky to agree no NATO. Zelensky has indicated he is ready to negotiate in the last couple of days. For context, even before this situation there has been a horrendous civil war going on in Ukraine for years.

If I were Zelensky I would be asking Russia to agree for UN to go in (as it has in other places, nearest being re Kosovo, Israel, Cyprus...) while there are negotiations, stopping the death and destruction and the neo nazis from increasing.

Russia said at the outset it was going into Ukraine pursuant to article 51 part 7 - Israel and other nations have invaded neighbours pursuant to this article in the past and though this interpretation has always been challenged by the UN Russia referred to article 51 part 7 which states "[military action by a member state] shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security"

The aim being all weapons withdrawn from both sides and from all neo nazis, UN goes in while there are talks and while Ukraine is being rebuilt, war crimes examined, neo nazis totally disarmed, civil war in East of Ukraine which has gone on for years totally stopped.

I think there should be international commitment to restore economic and political stability as a priority. Which means re-thinking sanctions.

Sorry, I meant "I think there should be international commitment to restore economic and political stability worldwide as a priority. Which means re-thinking sanctions."

@ABitBesotted

Meanwhile Blair, Cameron, May, Bush, Obama etc walk free. How many people have we bombed because Hussein, Milosevic, Osama bin Laden, Gaddafi, Assad etc etc are bad, wicked men doing "war crimes?" Any amount of destruction is thus so casually justified.

There's an excellent book by John Laughland, A History of Political Trials, which shows how every political trial from that of Charles I to Nuremberg to Pinochet has been a showtrial, inept, corrupt, and farcical.

We could try Putin for bombing a hospital, but surely it means nailing Obama for the wanton bombing of the Kunduz charity hospital in Afghanistan. Sorry, that's a "distraction", isn't it? We are such fucking hypocrites and if anyone points it out, it is dubbed "whataboutery."

I agree.

In the context of what is going on right now, in Ukraine
, it absolutely is utter whataboutery.

If charging Blair, Obama etc with “war crimes” right now would stop the Russians today then maybe it would be worth doing, but it won’t.

@wotnogas, I think it's very naive to assume that the Russians are negotiating in good faith. Their original plan was to seize the airports around Kyiv, fly in troops, execute depose the current leaders and install a puppet government. The only reason they are even pretending to negotiate is because of military resistance and sanctions. If you take those things away they'll just go back to their original plan.

@Papertyger

I'm feeling extremely thankful and a little embarrassed towards the USA at the moment.

Those troops holding the western liberal democracy line around the whole world are some ones wife, son, mother, father , uncles and aunts best friends etc.
They are stuck on fault lines all around the globe hanging in there at huge cost to the USA to protect us and democracy.

It's embarrassing that a massive land mass of the EU ( including UK) can't hold our open against Russia.

Don't take this the wrong way, hon, but you sound awfully like a lot of Russian trolls whose job it is to 'subtly' undermine support for NATO and the Ukraine. If you aren't they should be paying you.