To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

Are you addressing me? I think Ukraine were unofficially promised certain things that sure as fuck haven't materialised.

They have every right to request NATO membership.

I think Ukraine were unofficially promised certain things that sure as fuck haven't materialised.

I think so too. I keep thinking about that thing the Ukrainian ambassador said before the invasion, and how he backtracked after that, and I think they were promised more and encouraged towards the membership and it all blew in their/everybody's faces.

@ABitBesotted

Are you addressing me? I think Ukraine were unofficially promised certain things that sure as fuck haven't materialised.

They have every right to request NATO membership.

Yes I was.

I don't like American expansionism and interference any more than Russian. I was complaining when it was the contras and the Sandinistas FFS. Don't get me started on Britain's nonsense.

But in this case Ukraine is exercising it's right to self determination and any pretence that Russia 'has a point' deflects from that.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I think Ukraine were unofficially promised certain things that sure as fuck haven't materialised.

I think so too. I keep thinking about that thing the Ukrainian ambassador said before the invasion, and how he backtracked after that, and I think they were promised more and encouraged towards the membership and it all blew in their/everybody's faces.

Yes. It's a bit reminiscent of Georgia- Saakashvili wined and dined at the White House, whispers of NATO membership, etc etc, and fuck all support when it all kicked off in 2008.

Zelensky is a much more intelligent man, and a braver one, but I still think he trusted them too much.

MrsTP, I daresay we have much common ground.

*Containment and negotiation is what is called for, not escalation

'Containment' is just euphemistic jargonese for 'we are are going to let the Ukrainian people and country be bombed into annihilation in the hope that will let Putin get it out of his system so that he then won't bomb anywhere else'.

Given this strategy has not worked in Crimea or Syria or anywhere else that has faced Russian aggression, I am not really sure why the West thinks it is now going to contain Putin rather then further embolden him.

@deragod

I’m really sorry about the situation your mum is in, and to clarify I’m not saying that Ukraine didn’t have a right to NATO membership if they wanted it.

But you talk about rulers and straight lines as if NATO isn’t just another form of gaining power and strategy, and it’s all freedoms and peace once you join NATO. Like a pp mentioned look at other countries who had US involvement and look what happened to them.

You’ve swallowed the narrative that joining NATO is something that’s good for you and not also a massive strategic advantage for the US.

Look at swedens prime minister - she’s said they will not consider joining NATO at this time because it will cause instability in the region. Who made the choice that was better for their country at the time, Zelensky or Andersson?

I agree Ukraine should have been able to make the decision to join NATO however it can’t pretend that Russia isn’t it’s neighbour. And Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, particularly it’s expansion to the east. These are the facts. I feel for Ukraine’s plight, and as for the alternatives I don’t know, but it doesn’t involve ignoring the giant next door who is interested in his own security.

Who knows what they were promised when they were encouraged towards nato membership, it hasn’t materialised in the way they’d hoped and now Zelensky is ‘cooling’ down on NATO membership. As much as Ukraine shouldn’t be a puppet for Russia they should look after their own self interest as well. Joining nato at this time wasn’t the right choice when you look at the repercussions not just for Ukraine but possibly the world.

Does anyone know what is happening to the Polish fighter jets that were to be sent to Ukraine? Has that plan been abandoned?

The US said no to the jets as it would mean them flying into contested airspace from a nato base.

You’ve swallowed the narrative that joining NATO is something that’s good for you and not also a massive strategic advantage for the US.

I think that expanding NATO is seen as a good thing in the US, but how exactly is it a massive strategic advantage? It's another country that has to be defended if attacked, so there's a downside too.

@mowglika agreed.

Magdalena Andersson is a realist and a champ. No emotion, no kneejerk crap, just pragmatism and putting Sweden first.

@MissConductUS

You’ve swallowed the narrative that joining NATO is something that’s good for you and not also a massive strategic advantage for the US.

I think that expanding NATO is seen as a good thing in the US, but how exactly is it a massive strategic advantage? It's another country that has to be defended if attacked, so there's a downside too.

And another country to help defend the rest of us. SO kind of a cooperative association. I would say the disadvantage of NOT being a NATO member have ben pretty comprehensively demonstrated in the past couple of weeks. Of course it benefits the US, but it benefits us too, and Poland, etc. Why do you think Putin invaded Ukraine?

Why do you think Putin invaded Ukraine?

Clearly because he wanted it back in his control and it's not a NATO member, so not protected by article 5. That still doesn't explain why mowglika thinks having Ukraine as a member would be a massive strategic benefit specifically to the US, as opposed to say, NATO members in Europe.

Who knows what they were promised when they were encouraged towards nato membership, it hasn’t materialised in the way they’d hoped and now Zelensky is ‘cooling’ down on NATO membership

I was watching an Asian current affair show last night which said that Zelensky said in a speech April 2021 that the US had assured him that Ukraine would never be left alone in the face of Russian aggrssion, that Zelensky said in a speech Sept 2021 that Biden had told him that he personally would be backing the Ukrainian application to NATO, that Zelensky had been told that Ukraine was of vital importance to NATO security because of its position. It does seem he was led down the garden path. I guess the US will say what they meant was that they would supply weapons only, that it was a misunderstanding. But I think US involvement or culpability should be considered.

But as you say Zelensky says his thoughts have changed about NATO, he no longer wants to pursue it and is willing to discuss neutrality and autonomy for Donbas, which, along with Crimea, was what Russia had asked for, for a ceasefire.

Yet the meeting today with Lavrov was such a disappointment, the Ukrainian FM saying he had authority to and was fully expecting to try to agree terms (for a ceasefire?), but Lavroc said he was there to listen only.

I think sanctions were/are a misjudgement too, though, as I said upthread, given how ineffective they are politically and how much instability and suffering they will bring normal people all over the world this time. So many people are on the breadline already. I'd love to know how Biden sees this ending.

" his war is terrible he need's to stop asking"

Their survival is on the line.
Wouldn't you Keep asking?

Interesting talk of him doing his own fly zone.
There are many ways to attack problems

His war is terrible he needs to stop asking
When your house is on fire and you're hanging out of your window screaming for help, don't be surprised when your neighbour tells you to shut up because you're disturbing him.

He also knows this could be yesterday's news very fast, once the initial shock is over and everyone goes back to normal.

I'm feeling extremely thankful and a little embarrassed towards the USA at the moment.

Those troops holding the western liberal democracy line around the whole world are some ones wife, son, mother, father , uncles and aunts best friends etc.
They are stuck on fault lines all around the globe hanging in there at huge cost to the USA to protect us and democracy.

It's embarrassing that a massive land mass of the EU ( including UK) can't hold our open against Russia.

@Papertyger

I'm feeling extremely thankful and a little embarrassed towards the USA at the moment.

Those troops holding the western liberal democracy line around the whole world are some ones wife, son, mother, father , uncles and aunts best friends etc.
They are stuck on fault lines all around the globe hanging in there at huge cost to the USA to protect us and democracy.

It's embarrassing that a massive land mass of the EU ( including UK) can't hold our open against Russia.

Could you explain what you mean? I am not really sure what you mean "can't hold our open against Russia"? Thank you.

Also the US troops holding fault lines, do you mean UN troops?
(There will be troops from US and other nations forming part of UN troops)

Also I don't think we (the West) will be going back to normal as sanctions will affect us too.

Where are you posting from, if you don't mind me asking?

Also the US troops holding fault lines, do you mean UN troops?(There will be troops from US and other nations forming part of UN troops)

In addition to the 100,000 or so US troops deployed in Europe, they are stationed in dozens of other countries, in the middle east, Asia, etc.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

@wotnogasot no gas, apologies but when someone's says" were are you posting from" I feel like saying something naughty in reply.

Where are you posting from sounds like you think my English is bad.
If I am "foreign" is that a crime? Are foreign people or people whose English is a second language not allowed to post on here?
Is there something about this that's an issue for you?
If I am English but write badly, is that a problem for you? Is it polite to point out? What if I have not been taught how to write?

What if I spent my childhood ill in ahd out of hospital maybe I have Sen? Dyslexia?
Maybe I have fat finger's and a poor key pad?

Why, would you ask this question.

I cannot see anything positive or friendly or kind in such a question.

Do you feel your expression and standard of English is superior?

There will be troops from US and other nations forming part of UN troops

There are indeed plenty of US Forces stationed around the globe, but out of interest how many US troops do you think are actually serving on UN peace keeping operations at the moment?

Why, would you ask this question.

She asked because you said something nice about the United States, which immediately makes you suspect on MN.

Thanks, by the way. I'm an American with family members in the military. A South Korean once told me that he was very grateful for the presence of American troops in his country as they acted as a deterrent to their neighbor to the north.

@notimagain

There will be troops from US and other nations forming part of UN troops

There are indeed plenty of US Forces stationed around the globe, but out of interest how many US troops do you think are actually serving on UN peace keeping operations at the moment?

I have no idea - do you know? How many US are serving on UN peace keeping operations, who else is serving on UN peace keeping operations and on "fault lines" (and where are the "fault lines?) and where are the US troops? (Would save me having to look it up if you do know!)

[quote Papertyger]@wotnogasot no gas, apologies but when someone's says" were are you posting from" I feel like saying something naughty in reply.

Where are you posting from sounds like you think my English is bad.
If I am "foreign" is that a crime? Are foreign people or people whose English is a second language not allowed to post on here?
Is there something about this that's an issue for you?
If I am English but write badly, is that a problem for you? Is it polite to point out? What if I have not been taught how to write?

What if I spent my childhood ill in ahd out of hospital maybe I have Sen? Dyslexia?
Maybe I have fat finger's and a poor key pad?

Why, would you ask this question.

I cannot see anything positive or friendly or kind in such a question.

Do you feel your expression and standard of English is superior?[/quote]
I am very sorry for causing offence - and naughty replies work too! I genuinely didn't understand your post, and genuinely thought you were posting from outside the West because otherwise you'd realise that sanctions are going to mean that we are not going to get back to normal. Absolutely no offence meant at all.

And I would like to know what you meant in your post as I genuinely didn't understand the bit I quoted, which I did assume was because I am tired and therefore a bit dense rather than thinking that I have superior language skills!