Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

[KoalafiedAwesome]

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

The people serving aren't paid enough to deal with aggro from drunk customers.

Then they should be paid more; because this is (sadly) part of the job.

Thank you for that, that's helpful! @me4real

@KoalafiedAwesome

The people serving aren't paid enough to deal with aggro from drunk customers.

Then they should be paid more; because this is (sadly) part of the job.

And where's this money coming from, if pubs are banning families and stopping serving people so much drink?

@Booboobibles

There must be a financial reason for allowing kids in the pub and therefore the pub must take some responsibility.

It’s all very well saying they’re not a babysitting service but life isn’t that black and white (why am I, as a diagnosed aspie constantly having to point this out?🙄). The pub owners know that there is a chance that a child could be killed but they go ahead letting in children because it would affect their profits if they didn’t. It doesn’t matter if the parents are meant to be responsible….of course they’re meant to be, but if we know that they’re irresponsible idiots we have to protect their kids.

They should at the very least have very large signs warning of the dangers or they should put a stair gate on the door.

I have never been in a pub that has a stairgate on the door of the pub.

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

So you want someone to supervise the parents to make sure they are supervising the kids?

We have a pub and it's used by lots of families.
It is the parent's responsibility to look after their children.
The staff will not serve more alcohol to anyone who appears that they have had too much, regardless of whether they have children or not.

If parents/carers are not supervising after their children, they will be asked to do so. If they continue to fail to care for them, the party will be asked to leave. There are staff walking about serving hot food and drinks and tripping over a small child is a risk we try and avoid.
So if they are stopping us doing our job safely, then yes, but if they are wandering off onto the road, then it's not our responsibility (obviously in saying that, if we spotted a rogue toddler - or elderly customer with dementia - wandering off unnoticed by their career, we would point it out - but aren't liable).

Carer, not career.

If you think licensing laws are being broken contact the council. You could also raise the issue of road safety with them too.

They should at the very least have very large signs warning of the dangers or they should put a stair gate on the door.
What am I reading?!
Sorry, but a stair gate on a pub door has got to be one of the most bonkers things I've read on here and that's saying something!
(Now got an image of people drunkenly fumbling with the damn thing to try and get out, or trying to comedy pole vault over the top of it as everything seems a good idea when you're pissed 😂)
It's not the bar staff's job to watch out for your kids, it's not feasible for them to do that all the time.
They're not a babysitting service.

They are not in loco parentis of course, but I ran the pub I'd feel terrible if anything happened to a child. So I'd be asking parents to leave who were not looking out for their children.

Pubs are not in Loco Parentis, they don't have a direct responsibility to supervise children.
They do have a responsibilty to manage a generally safe environment and if there is a culture of allowing dangerous incidents to occur unecessarily, that can affect their licence.

Even if the pub owners don't care, I'm sure they would care about the reputational damage if there was a nasty accident reported all over the local press, even if it wasn't their fault.

@lostoldname Thanks - that's a really good shout re road safety issues and the council.

Of course the pub don't have a duty of care to children. They aren't babysitters, they're a business who serve food and drinks.
This is a parenting issue.

Having worked in a pub this is a really big problem. In my case it was quite a middle class area and we had quite posh parents getting drunk and being in no condition to supervise their children. The starting point for the bar is that the duty of care can be managed via disclosure, but it is well understood that this is not enough, i.e. if a child is injured badly a pub will get legal action taken against it. Whilst most parents are good and welcome a meal and one/two drinks in a family friendly pub, but some abused the system. We once stopped a woman from getting into her car with a baby and a toddler when she could hardly walk. We received a written complaint afterwards- she was a Doctor!

The pub isn’t responsible for the children but I think surely everyone has a duty of care for children. If a parent is so trollied in the day they can’t look after their kids properly then phone the police.

@Rosehugger but nasty accidents can happen anyway. If I saw an article, unless it was the pubs' fault, I would just think oh poor child.

I have seen on MN many times some parents defending children running about pubs, cafes and restaurants while staff carry hot drinks or food. Some people just arent bothered.

Yes, I would think that too, but it only takes one comment underneath to start a shit storm at times "I've always said it was unsafe for children there..."

I've seen far more people criticising parents for letting children run around in the way of staff than I've ever seen defending the behaviour on MN.

@Brainwave89

Having worked in a pub this is a really big problem. In my case it was quite a middle class area and we had quite posh parents getting drunk and being in no condition to supervise their children. The starting point for the bar is that the duty of care can be managed via disclosure, but it is well understood that this is not enough, i.e. if a child is injured badly a pub will get legal action taken against it. Whilst most parents are good and welcome a meal and one/two drinks in a family friendly pub, but some abused the system. We once stopped a woman from getting into her car with a baby and a toddler when she could hardly walk. We received a written complaint afterwards- she was a Doctor!

Who complained?

@Rosehugger yes I agree more criticise it. But there are parents who defend it and talk about letting kids be kids. Some people have very different ideas of appropriate behaviour.
I knew a mum like this whose kids were allowed to run about and get in anyone way. But she was the adult equivalent. The kind who would stand in narrow shop doorways chatting to someone and then look annoyed if asked to move. Or play her music loud really late if she felt like it. Selfish people don't care about the impact they or their kids have on others.

@LawnFever

It’s the parent’s responsibility to look after their kids, although if they’re openly drunk the pub should stop serving them.

But ultimately the pub aren’t responsible for looking after the kids, and if something happened to the kids the parents would be held accountable.

If they're too drunk then stop serving them and phone either the police or social services because they're unfit to be in charge of children.

I worked in a pub on a few occasions I refused to serve drunk parents I ended up having to call the police and needing medical assistance. The first time I was only young 18 and was bloody scared the dad leaped over the counter and pinned me up against the wall and head butted me In the nose. There was blood everywhere.
The 2nd time I was a little older the woman picked up an ashtray and lobbed it at me it hit me in the head and split it open.

I think pubs should be child free places.

@EmmaH2022 it is bliss at ours, owned by a group of locals, no music or TV of any kind, adult conversation only. I hated being in a pub as a kid, luckily a rare event thanks to my mum. This was when smokers were everywhere and their lit cigarettes were just at the height of your head.
I avoid the other local pub that's 'family friendly' which is just code for sloshed parents ignoring their kids. The lack of responsibility staggers me.

I must have been living under a rock. I thought children could only go into a pub if they were having a meal. I had no idea that parents go to the pub for a drink and take their DC’s.

Seriously who would do this, a pub is no place for a child. But it’s not the pub’s responsibility to watch the the kids but the parents should not be allowed to buy alcohol other than with their food.