Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

[KoalafiedAwesome]

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

And plenty of pubs / restaurants / cafes I've been in do have notices up saying 'please supervise your children'

100% the parents responsibility, however I wish there was provision for those drunk in charge of children to be held more responsible by the law.

I was that child who was left to roam free in a pub from the age of 6. I was given a lemonade and nuts and left for hours unsupervised. Sometimes I was left in the car in the carpark, and was brought a snack to have in the car. I hated it, was often frightened when left alone for hours in the carpark, and wished somebody had noticed and intervened. Then there was the terror of being driven home afterwards by a drunk father, even at 6 noticing the car swerving along the roads and he barely able to keep his head up and eyes open.

This was the early 80’s onwards but here we are decades later and still no one, including the law, cares about the impact of this type of parental behaviour on children . I realise I divert from the original question, but this is how I felt, and still do, about the perspective of some children who were just left to roam (I’m sure some loved playing unsupervised with their siblings etc).

@Febrier

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

Were you aware of this an hour ago when you asked?

Children in pubs is one of my bugbears. Pubs are for adults not children. I hate it when families allow their children to run around or make a noise where people are carrying glasses and wanting adult conversation. Also, I think it's unreasonable to expect children to behave in an environment that is not set up for their age group.

Most pubs serve food as it’s profitable I assume, they want families custom. They have childrens menus, so lots of family now use them for socialising and having a meal out as children are allowed. I agree they shouldn’t be left running around as it can be dangerous with hot food/drinks being carried around. But it’s not always drunk families not watching their kids tbh.

I’ve gone with friends and their kids to the pub, they’ve been taught to sit at the table, toys/colouring/chat etc as young children and not allowed to run around and now as older children are perfectly behaved at a table for a meal which may include a couple of alcoholic drinks for the adults.

@Smartiepants79

Why does our society keep trying to find ways to absolve parents of their parental responsibilities? The pub staff ( a bunch of underpaid 19 year olds) have no responsibility for OTHER people’s children.

This with bells on...

I do agree that the children are totally the parents' responsibility and the bar staff have enough to do without childminding. Once I worked in a toyshop and you wouldn't believe how many people thought it was fine to leave the kids while they went into other shops. The record was 5 hours. We called the police & they involved social services.

I think more attention could be paid to layout/design in many places. So basically designing out the most obvious dangers, such as a straight run from the family area to the road & instead using planting to direct the route. Makes the space more interesting for everyone too.

Isn’t it YOUR responsibility as a concerned citizen?

I’d call the police whilst I was at the pub following the 2 year old wondering off

What I WOULD NOT do is decide not to go back because it was all a bit distressing for me

You're just sat judging so you have more ability to step in.

We haven't been sat judging - we have intervened.

Most bar staff are young, underpaid, and usually quite busy enough without adding on babysitting duties.

Definitely talk to the local Licensing Department. Pub would most likely be found negligent in the case of an accident involving a child, even if it was on the road.

When you came across the 2 year old and “stopped”

What did you actually Do?

You now say you have “reported before”

Who to?

@CounsellorTroi

It’s parents’ job to make sure children don’t run on to the road, not the pub’s.

I think you’ve misunderstood the OP. The question is not whether the pub staff should be supervising the kids. It's whether they should continue to serve alcohol to parents who are evidently already too drunk to look after their kids. I think it should be comparable to drink driving. If the bar staff know someone plans to drive home they have an obligation to stop serving them. This should be the same.

See you are quite happy to say it's my responsibility but then I am just another person like the bar staff - so surely it's their responsibility too?

Really what we actually did doesn't matter - you either say it's solely the responsibility of the parents, or you say it's everyone's responsibility which includes the staff and management of the premises.

But yes, the issue has been conflated.

Parents who are not supervising their children should not be served further alcohol and should be asked to leave.

I cannot do that as a customer.

Yes it’s everyone’s responsibility as concerned citizens

But they are doing a job and probably buys whereas you are there to kick back and have a drink - so I’d be more inclined to think that you could respond more swiftly

So I’d be more inclined to think

You get moving on it
And stop navel gazing about division of responsibility

@KoalafiedAwesome

But yes, the issue has been conflated.

Parents who are not supervising their children should not be served further alcohol and should be asked to leave.

I cannot do that as a customer.

Correct

But what you can do, which ultimately will have MUCH more of a an impact
Is call the police whilst you are there and this is happening

We have called the police - please don't assume we haven't called the police.

But they are doing a job and probably buys whereas you are there to kick back and have a drink -

Actually - we've been there working on some of the occasions this has happened- yet another assumption from yourself on our behaviour.

@KoalafiedAwesome

But they are doing a job and probably buys whereas you are there to kick back and have a drink -

Actually - we've been there working on some of the occasions this has happened- yet another assumption from yourself on our behaviour.

Oh come on

I was wrong to assume that you were at a pub to kick back and have a drink

@KoalafiedAwesome

We have called the police - please don't assume we haven't called the police.

Well yes actually I will assume that

Given you make no mention of it at al in your OP

And kind of relevant as conveys the severity of your concern AND whether the pub was actually unreasonable in the eyes of the law ie if police have taken no action against the pub or parents then suggests….

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

I’m in scotland so the law may be different but absolutely. The license holder has a responsibility to ensure the safety of all on their premises. Anyone serving parents to the point they were drunk enough that their child was injured on site would have some pretty tough questions to be answering.

Also in Scotland you are on the licensed premises at the license holders invite so they can refuse to serve you and ask you to leave for any reason, but they are duty bound to refuse to serve a drink person.

No it’s not a baby sitting service BUT should they serve drunk parents?
When they ring up to book, ask if there are children and give a two hour slot.

@KoalafiedAwesome

But they are doing a job and probably buys whereas you are there to kick back and have a drink -

Actually - we've been there working on some of the occasions this has happened- yet another assumption from yourself on our behaviour.

What do you do that means you're working in a pub but are so harshly judging the staff who work there and having next to no knowledge of their responsibilities?

Were you having a 'staff meeting'? Just because you told your clients or colleagues you were working doesn't mean you were. We've all had those meetings.