Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

[KoalafiedAwesome]

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

@KoalafiedAwesome

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

A pub can refuse service to anyone, and have (as Iunderstand it) a duty of care not to let any drinker get too bladdered.

However, they don't know how much people are drinking, especially if they are outside, and certainly aren't a baby-sitting service. People can get over-involved in conversation and ignore children even if they aren't drinking at all.

It's up to parents to look after their children.

The pub isn't legally responsible but I would feel very poorly about any adult who was in a situation where there was a risk of serious injury to a child and didn't intervene. I have more than once found myself 'shadowing' a small child that I felt was in danger (usually swimming/near the road or about to make a bolt from the playground) until I saw the parent turn up. And that is usually parents who have had a lapse in supervision or temporarily lost their child (so could happen to any of us), not drunk parents. If parents are repeatedly getting drunk in charge of their children, the pub staff or anyone else around should report to social services.

And if the pub is catering specifically to families with young children, the garden should be enclosed with a gate.

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

Were you aware of this an hour ago when you asked?

Children in pubs is one of my bugbears. Pubs are for adults not children. I hate it when families allow their children to run around or make a noise where people are carrying glasses and wanting adult conversation. Also, I think it's unreasonable to expect children to behave in an environment that is not set up for their age group.

Parents 100% at fault, not the pub staff on minimum wage or close to it.

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

How would it be clear to them. They are usually behind the bar serving the adults and won’t have any idea if they are with children never mind supervising them.

I am going to say that you were the one who witnessed the act of neglect not the staff. What did you do about it?

@KoalafiedAwesome

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

Did you report the incident when you found the child?

@KoalafiedAwesome

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

Report them then. Don't put the onus onto people whose responsibility it is not.

Children in pubs is one of my bugbears. Pubs are for adults not children. I hate it when families allow their children to run around or make a noise where people are carrying glasses and wanting adult conversation. Also, I think it's unreasonable to expect children to behave in an environment that is not set up for their age group.

I agree with this to some extent, although a lot of pubs have started pushing how 'family-friendly' they are in recent years when in reality they're not.

@KoalafiedAwesome

It's not about being right or wrong - I was interested in others views... I find it pretty shocking to be honest, particularly as most people seem to be unaware that being in charge of a child whilst intoxicated in public is illegal - just as drink driving is.

The difference is though - there is a set limit for drink driving, if you're over the limit, it's illegal.

In licensing laws, there is no definition of what "drunk" is - everyone's perception is different and so it makes it difficult. If you'd ever been on a personal license course, this is pretty much drilled in to you that "drunk" isn't a one size fits all.

The law also goes for the parents, everyone on the thread has agreed it's irresponsible of the parents and that they are to blame - nobody is disputing that, what they're saying is that it is the parents responsibility- not the pubs.

Same goes for drink driving, I would quite often drive to the pub, leave my car there and then go back for it the next day. Saved having to get two taxi's. Staff can't be sure someone is planning on drink driving. Again, it is up to the person drinking to be responsible, not staff

Ridiculous. It's a pub. They are staff, not police or social services!

@Zero19

I’m sure when my kids were younger Wetherspoons would only serve 2 drinks with someone who had kids with them and only if they had a meal aswel . Not sure if it’s still the case ?

Not in the Wetherspoons I’ve been in!

I don’t think it’s a pubs responsibility to watch children, it may be their responsibility to stop offering service is to those who let their kids run riot but to be honest they need the money/custom so many may turn a blind eye.

Do pubs have a duty of care? Not to babysit children. This would get massively abused.

If parents are rowdy then they can be refused service and if they are letting children run loose then staff CAN say something- they for example could trip staff up, but in reality staff don't want to do this as you end up with very arsey parents. It is usually the same problem parents so you might look at trying to ban them but its tricky.

Make a complaint to the council about the pubs layout and the danger posed. Hopefully they will get the pub to take action as part of their licensing.

I guess staff could also call police when parents are leaving. I mean its a similar situation as to what does a publican do if they know someone is drunk, demands more drink, and had car keys which are their only way of getting home?

It's an important aspect of licensing for a premises to make sure vulnerable people like children aren't at risk from serving alcohol ie to their parents.

Agree with worraliberty

How is it our responsibility more than the pub staff then?

We are the ones serving the alcohol, in a premises directly onto a roadside with open access for kids to run out and planters that obscure the view of drivers.

@Febrier Yes I was - we googled with friends when we had this discussion!

Because you're the ones watching the drama unfold, not the ones trying to do their job.

The bar staff are working and trying to balance food, drinks, cleaning and customer service.

You're just sat judging so you have more ability to step in.

If you don't want to, don't, but don't blame other people - other than the parents.

I'm.surprised so few people realise that protection of children is a key aspect.

If a child was harmed by a parent and it was traced back to a premises serving them alcohol knowing there were children and they were past the point of being able to care for their children the premises risk their license and the server substantial fines.

The pub has a duty of care in terms of making sure the premises are safe for customers. They shouldn’t be serving alcohol to customers beyond a safe limit, which may be lower if the customer has children with them. I would also expect them to ask customers to leave if they or their children are engaging in unsafe behaviours. I wouldn’t be happy if the pub was allowing people to get drunk and let their kids do dangerous things, they should be kicking them out.

No they don't have a duty of care. A bar licence requires you to obey pretty much two rules: don't sell alchol to under-18s, and don't sell alcohol to someone already drunk (which is difficult to judge, but usually taken to me a someone who is struggling to speak or stand up).

Not sure why you'd think they'd have a duty of care over customers children, especially when they've gone OUTSIDE their business?

I think this is on the parents completely. Pubs don’t have any obligation to make themselves child friendly, some pubs do make an amazing effort and that’s great but I wouldn’t expect all pubs to do this.
I know where you’re coming from and it’s horrible seeing parents not looking after your kids the it’s the parents at fault here, they should be watching them.

It should never ever be the responsibility of pub staff to supervise children though.