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AIBU?

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Original poster

Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

178 replies

KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 09:05

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

OP posts:
Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 11:43

@girlmom21 Yes another assumption. Many people have visited cafes/pubs/restaurants to work, particularly in our area when we've had chunks of time without electricity.

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Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 11:45

@Landedonfeet Assumption, after assumption, after assumption...

Sigh, you have no idea the police took no action against either the parents or the pub.

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nancy75 · 04/03/2022 11:46

My husband runs a pub, they can refuse service to anyone without giving a reason.
In the situation op describes I have no doubt he would ask the parents to leave IF he was aware of the issue.
Most pubs are staffed to minimum levels & most staff will be behind the bar so might not necessarily see what’s going on in the garden.

girlmom21 · 04/03/2022 11:46

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]@girlmom21 Yes another assumption. Many people have visited cafes/pubs/restaurants to work, particularly in our area when we've had chunks of time without electricity.[/quote]
Generally pubs aren't full of noisy families getting pissed on a weekday

Landedonfeet · 04/03/2022 11:46

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]@girlmom21 Yes another assumption. Many people have visited cafes/pubs/restaurants to work, particularly in our area when we've had chunks of time without electricity.[/quote]
Totally missed the point

The fact that you are using the premises to work is irrelevant. Or does that mean someone not there to work has more responsibility to you.

Fact is - we ALL have responsibility.

I am curious about the police’s take on the situation
But I suspect you will come back arms flailing telling me that “I’m missing the point” by asking what the polices view on the pub is

Landedonfeet · 04/03/2022 11:48

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]@girlmom21 Yes another assumption. Many people have visited cafes/pubs/restaurants to work, particularly in our area when we've had chunks of time without electricity.[/quote]
You said you haven’t been there recentlt

Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 11:49

@Landedonfeet How would be know? It would be totally wrong of the police to divulge the information to anyone who had reported it...

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Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 11:50

@Landedonfeet - Yes we haven't. Our electricity cuts were last year...

Honestly, perhaps it's time you leave the thread... Seems to have hit a nerve with you for some reason.

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whumpthereitis · 04/03/2022 11:51

Pubs have a duty of care in that obviously drunk customers will be asked to leave, and parents will be asked to supervise their children if they run wild. They are obligated to call the police if they see someone attempting to drive drunk. Beyond that, the responsibility is the parents.

My local pub is understaffed, and the bar staff is made up mainly of girls no older than 19. Not only are they busy focusing on their work (which isn’t shadowing children), but they’re not generally the most equipped to confront belligerent drunks on the issue of poor parenting.

MrsWinters · 04/03/2022 11:51

Can you imagine the amount of agro they would get if they told someone they weren’t serving them because they didn’t approve of their parenting Hmm . Don’t think they are paid enough to deal with that for a start- but also we all have different views of what is acceptable parenting- they’d never hear the end of it.

disconnected101 · 04/03/2022 11:54

@Theremustbemoretome awful Sad

Booboobibles · 04/03/2022 11:55

There must be a financial reason for allowing kids in the pub and therefore the pub must take some responsibility.

It’s all very well saying they’re not a babysitting service but life isn’t that black and white (why am I, as a diagnosed aspie constantly having to point this out?🙄). The pub owners know that there is a chance that a child could be killed but they go ahead letting in children because it would affect their profits if they didn’t. It doesn’t matter if the parents are meant to be responsible….of course they’re meant to be, but if we know that they’re irresponsible idiots we have to protect their kids.

They should at the very least have very large signs warning of the dangers or they should put a stair gate on the door.

girlmom21 · 04/03/2022 11:57

The pub owners know that there is a chance that a child could be killed but they go ahead letting in children because it would affect their profits if they didn’t.

Why is there a chance that a child could be killed? Because adults are irresponsible? By that logic a drunken adult could walk in the road and be killed.
Should they stop letting adults in too?

Landedonfeet · 04/03/2022 11:58

So pub still has full license
And parents still coming back with children
And pub still not doing anything

So doesn’t look like the police thought the pub had a responsibility

Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 11:58

Fuck, I am really sorry to hear that @Theremustbemoretome - sorry I missed your post. That is a really horrific experience.

I worked in a pub, many moons ago, and in a different country (one with very different regulations) and it was in an area where it was quite a common experience - this was mid 2000s. We had an obligation to report suspected drink drivers though prior to them leaving the premises.

Many pubs ended up banning children completely because of scenarios like you describe.

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Landedonfeet · 04/03/2022 11:59

This reply has been deleted

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Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 12:02

@Landedonfeet No idea if pub still has full licence, no idea if it was suspended for a while (as we didn't visit), no idea if the same parents are still going back...

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LemonTT · 04/03/2022 12:02

@KoalafiedAwesome

See you are quite happy to say it's my responsibility but then I am just another person like the bar staff - so surely it's their responsibility too?

Really what we actually did doesn't matter - you either say it's solely the responsibility of the parents, or you say it's everyone's responsibility which includes the staff and management of the premises.

It does matter. A child was left neglected and put in harms way by the parents. Who may or may not have been inebriated. If they were and you did your civic duty the police would be called. The incident logged and picked up properly. This would include a review of the licensing.

I mean where they drunk and incapable? Because surely then you didn’t just hand them over.

CagneyNYPD1 · 04/03/2022 12:03

I'm with you @KoalafiedAwesome

I have previously held a Personal Licence and have been the Designated Premises Supervisor (Landlady) for a location selling alcohol (not a pub or club)

The DPS does have a responsibility to protect children while on the licensed premises. This is essentially to make sure that adults in charge of young children are not served alcohol if they are clearly intoxicated. In simple terms, if the adult in question is slurring their speech, unsteady on their feet the premises should stop serving that adult alcohol. This is because, if the child is 7 and under, the adult would then be breaking the law and would be doing so on a Licensed Premises. This could lead to a license review by te Council and the local police. All licensed premises have a child safeguarding clause within their licence.

All that said, that does not mean that individual bar staff should be making this decision. It is the responsibility of the DPS or personal licence holder to ensure that the licence conditions are met.

It is absolutely fine for parents to be in the pub having a couple of drinks while with their children. It becomes an issue if the adults become intoxicated.

Other parents who are not intoxicated but letting their kids wandering into roads etc are just crap parents. Neglectful. Ultimately, it is every parent's responsibility to look after their own dc. But if a pub sells that parent so much alcohol that they are drunk, then the premises leaves itself open to questions.

Any concerned citizen can report to the police if they witness young children being in the sole care of clearly intoxicated adults.

Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 12:03

@Booboobibles Another great post.

Perhaps there needs to be better training for staff then to handle difficult conversations? I mean refusing to serve drink is something that all staff should be comfortable to do and it's legally required for challenge 25 (or is it 21?)

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Landedonfeet · 04/03/2022 12:04

@LemonTT

Good luck
Op very cagey re what she did with the 2 year old she found
And still no idea if police turned up whilst she was there and had called them

me4real · 04/03/2022 12:04

Do pubs have a duty of care to children?

This is a QTWTAIN- question to which the answer is no.

A parent/guardian has to be present and they are responsible for the child with them.

Phormiumjester · 04/03/2022 12:05

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]@Booboobibles Another great post.

Perhaps there needs to be better training for staff then to handle difficult conversations? I mean refusing to serve drink is something that all staff should be comfortable to do and it's legally required for challenge 25 (or is it 21?)[/quote]
When they aren't paid age based minimum wage, you can start putting more accountability on them. Til then, it's up the kids' actual parents to parent

cherryonthecakes · 04/03/2022 12:06

The people serving aren't paid enough to deal with aggro from drunk customers.

Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 12:09

@LemonTT - if you read my posts you will see that the police were called.

The police have been called on two occasions - I know the outcome of one which I have previously posted about on mumsnet (actually everyone was on my side then ... ) and the only reason I know the outcome of that is because the child was registered at my GP surgery and one of the staff breeched confidentiality and an absolutely horrendous way (which then had to go through a huge investigation process as well).

I do not know the outcome of the two year old on the road - I don't know if the police attended, the child was passed to a manager and I was asked to leave because "it should have been dealt with internally and I should not be giving the pub a bad image" basically". It was after this that we havent been back for a while.

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