Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

[KoalafiedAwesome]

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

The short answer to your question is under their license terms, no.

Being drunk is the reason to not serve someone.

They may chose to take a moral stance and not serve them if they are aware, but there is 0 responsibility.

There's a pub near us where parents get pissed whilst their kids run wild, especially on weekends. We just don't go there. The pub is not responsible for the children at all, the parents are.

Yes our local is like this on Friday afternoons after school pick up times. The school is just down the road from the pub. I avoid going there at that time!

So on top of doing their jobs they should also be a babysitting service? Nope. Why should they be held accountable for the feckless who cannot be arsed to supervise their own children?

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

You get parents that are not half drunk not supervising their kids.

It’s not down to the pub.

Pubs are not places for small children. Pub/restaurants are fine for a family meal if they are sat at the table eating, without excess alcohol. Rules should be rigidly enforced that children sit at tables with their parents at all times. Anyone with kids running riot while parents get pissed should be asked to leave with immediate effect.
Then at least other patrons can have a drink in peace

"family area"

Not "leave your kids here for free babysitting area" 🙄 parents are totally responsible, that includes their choice of how many drinks to have.

The bar staff won't be able to keep tabs on who's had what to drink - people don't get served by the same person each time they go up, the bar staff don't have time to try to remember what people have already had and unless someone is presenting as too drunk to serve then they shouldn't be served further then the bar staff will just serve them.

IMO the pub should do what they want, the responsibility 100% lies with the parents.

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

That leaves it too open to interpretation. Who is going to decide, by law, the definition of not supervising. It will mean different things to different people.

All pubs I've been to have signs to say that children are the responsibility of parents or guardians.

And bar staff do stop serving people who appear drunk. Same with they ban customers when needed.
Doing the same to parents would possibly destroy the business once they hit social media like they do with cafes etc.

@ohhooh

"family area"

Not "leave your kids here for free babysitting area" 🙄 parents are totally responsible, that includes their choice of how many drinks to have.

The bar staff won't be able to keep tabs on who's had what to drink - people don't get served by the same person each time they go up, the bar staff don't have time to try to remember what people have already had and unless someone is presenting as too drunk to serve then they shouldn't be served further then the bar staff will just serve them.

IMO the pub should do what they want, the responsibility 100% lies with the parents.

not only that, but how are they to keep tabs on who has kids with them and who does not?

It's not the pubs responsibility. It's poor parenting. Anyone who finds a toddler wandering the streets alone though should call the police!

I don't think it's got much to do with the alcohol though. I'm not saying it's right but people do take the opportunity of being out with friends to let their kids run around and sometimes ignore them/not supervise them properly. Its often the same situation at cafes, parks, swimming pools, etc.

Why does our society keep trying to find ways to absolve parents of their parental responsibilities?
The pub staff ( a bunch of underpaid 19 year olds) have no responsibility for OTHER people’s children.

I was bought up like this.

My parents getting pissed in the pub whilst me and my sister spent hours on the play equipment…where there was a gate leading straight out to the car park and off down the road with no one in the pub to see.

The older children were expected to keep an eye on the younger kids.

It’s the parents responsibility- not the pub’s.

People taking their children to the pub while they get drunk are bad parents.

No, I don’t think it is. I wouldn’t go to a pub where it was hard to supervise my kids though, I’d take mine somewhere better designed to meet our needs. So you’re possibly getting a self selected sample of people who aren’t supervising a closely as you would.

Although these days, I don’t think it would even occur to me to go to a pub at all, unless it were for a meal, and I’d only do to that to socialise, or maybe on holiday. I’d rather socialise in my home or theirs where it’s comfortable and a couple of drinks doesn’t cost more than my grocery budget. I don’t get what a pub adds to any drinking experience if you already know the people you’re drinking with and drinking at home is an option. (Nothing against pubs if people like them, I just don’t understand why people do and I think they are an outgoing trend)

100% parental responsibility.

The pub shouldn't serve alcohol to anyone who's obviously inebriated, otherwise yes YABU to say they have a duty of care. Pub staff don't have time to be working out whose DC are whose and which parents aren't taking enough care. How would they even determine that standard of care let alone enforce it.

I don't think pubs should literally be responsible for the children. But a rule like only serving X number of drinks to customers with children would be right imo.

@HalliWood

I don't think pubs should literally be responsible for the children. But a rule like only serving X number of drinks to customers with children would be right imo.

But then what if it's a family of grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles? Does everyone in the party only get two drinks or do the parents need to declare themselves?

@Crucible

This is why I go to a pub which only allows in 14 years and older. Pubs are for adults.

I wish we had one locally.

The pub has the normal duties of an occupier towards visitors. Under the Occupier's Liability Act 1957 they must "take such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there".

The Act also says thatan occupier must be prepared for children to be less careful than adults, so a higher standard of care is required in relation to them. However, an occupier can reasonably expect that child visitors be accompanied by their parents or other guardians, who will look after them. Case law says that the occupier has discharged his duty toward a child if he made the premises reasonably safe for the child accompanied by the kind of guardian that he can expect them to be accompanied by in the circumstances.

Applying that to pubs, the issue is whether they should take into account that the kind of guardian expected may be someone who is less vigilant due to alcohol. If the occupier knows there have been problems in the past that would raise their level of responsibility. The pub would be sensible to err on the side of caution - for instance, putting in an automatically closing gate that is difficult for a child to open would make sense. It's a cheap and easy precaution and failure to take minimal steps like that might make a pub liable. If they have any sense, they've got notices around disclaiming liability and reminding people that they're responsible for their children.

@HalliWood

I don't think pubs should literally be responsible for the children. But a rule like only serving X number of drinks to customers with children would be right imo.

But who will keep track of who has kids and how many drinks they've had?

When a person appears too inebriated they can be cut off, kids or not, and that's all the responsibility the pub needs to have.

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

This is silly.

So they the parents can switch to orange juice and carry on not supervising their children? I don't get your logic

If parents aren't supervising their children, they need to be told to leave, regardless of what they're drinking.

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children

.only if the parent presented as totally intoxicated....however safeguarding is everyone's business...nothing to stop you ringing the police if you thought a child was at risk

It is not uncommon to see parents not supervising their kids whether in pubs, cafes, or out and about. Any adult should stop a toddler from wandering into the road. But I am not sure how bar staff can decide who is supervising and who is not supervising properly.