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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Do pubs have a duty of care for children?

178 replies

KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 09:05

We have a pub near us that we haven’t been for a while due to repeated incidents of this happening - we went last weekend as friends invited us.

Basically there have been so many incidences of parents getting sloshed and not watching their kids - the pub sits on a busy road and has tall flower planters at the front so there’s no line of sight for drivers from to the front door until a foot from the road side.

The “family area” is around the side of the pub with no area to the main road - but the entrance to that and the main entrance (by main road) are right next to each other but on perpendicular walls.

I raised it before with staff and they pretty much just shrug and say it’s not their issue if there’s an accident outside the premises. I raised it after a two year old (ish) had wondered off and was actually outside AND past the end of the pub building - I’d been to get some cash and was just walking back and recognised her as being alone and so stopped.

There’s also been cases where kids have run onto / very close to the road.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?

Our friends are not on the same page as us with this and think the bar can do what they want in regards to serving alcohol to parents responsible for children.

OP posts:
Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 10:10

Thank you @EthelTheAardvark this is a really helpful post.

@kitcat15 we have intervened previously.

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 04/03/2022 10:12

The parents are responsible,not the pub. However they shouldn't serve drunk parents, in charge of children.

NewYearNewMinty · 04/03/2022 10:13

Ethel's post is excellent.

Whilst they (particularly individual staff) shouldn't be responsible per se, if the pub management know and encourage by having a family area, children on the premises, and choose not to make adjustments to minimise risk, there is a possibility they could be held liable if an accident happens.

So in the this case...

Gate as suggested by Ethel

Only allowing access to the family area from the main door

Changing or getting rid of the planters to allow a clearer line of sight

I'm not sure how limiting alcohol would factor in, given that's kind of the purpose of being in a pub, unless someone was clearly very drunk.

LaQuern · 04/03/2022 10:14

No pubs do not.

We're not babysitters. Parents should parent their kids!!

Lalliella · 04/03/2022 10:18

What on earth? 100% the parents’ responsibility. 0% the pub’s.

Problem is these day some people don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions and think someone else is to blame or will look after them. Such people need to grow up and own their behaviour.

newnameforthis76 · 04/03/2022 10:18

It’s absolutely not the pub’s problem.

Phormiumjester · 04/03/2022 10:18

Is it fuck the pub's responsibility! Get a grip. Its entirely the parents'.
What else should we interfere in in case parents fail to parent?

racquel86 · 04/03/2022 10:19

Having been a barmaid in a small family pub/club on a sports ground..... I would say it's definitely not the responsibility of the pub staff to look after children but I do think it's highly irresponsible of adults to get very drunk when they have their children with them. Caring staff such as myself do feel pressure to 'watch' a child that is trying to escape out the door without parents noticing, and I absolutely hate to see overtired children asleep on pub seats that have been drenched in alcohol from spillages whilst adults 'get another round in'. Difficult one x

Fairyflaps · 04/03/2022 10:19

I know of pubs that have stopped serving parents or have even contacted police/ social services because of concern for young children whose parents are drunk and incapable of looking after them. I know of other customers at those pubs who have also raised concerns. - in the same way you would call the police if you saw someone who was drunk attempting to drive home.

Parents who are alcoholics will find pubs where their behaviour is tolerated (in the same way as under-age drinkers will find pubs that will serve them). Or they will leave their children at home.

disconnected101 · 04/03/2022 10:19

Do pubs have a duty of care for children?
No. Parents have a duty of care for their children.

Ultimately can a business refuse service to customers who are not supervising their kids, and should they?
A business can refuse service to customers for any reason they see fit, so long as it's not discrimination. Whether they should or not is a judgment call which can only be made by the manager on the day.
I suspect it would cause all sorts of problems, so the pub would need to have a blanket policy, clearly displayed, eg. 'supervise your children or out to fuck'

Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 10:20

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?

OP posts:
disconnected101 · 04/03/2022 10:21

And even if moved on, those parents will find somewhere else to go.
Poor kids.

disconnected101 · 04/03/2022 10:21

@KoalafiedAwesome

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?
Totally different. This affects whether someone is legally fit to drive.
Phormiumjester · 04/03/2022 10:22

@KoalafiedAwesome

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?
There's a legal limit to that. There isn't for parenting.
Lou98 · 04/03/2022 10:22

@KoalafiedAwesome

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?

That is not the responsibility of the pub. Over the limit can be a pint or two - someone may not be drunk, when do they decide to stop serving? People are responsible for their own actions, pub staff can't monitor everyone and keep up with what they're doing or going to go once they leave.

Having worked in pubs - legally, staff can refuse service to anyone, without having to provide a reason. However, it does not make staff responsible for people not parenting their kids. Staff have other people to serve, they can't just watch parents and their kids to make sure that they're still sober enough to be looking after them, that's the parent's responsibility and them alone

user468375484 · 04/03/2022 10:23

@KoalafiedAwesome

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
disconnected101 · 04/03/2022 10:23

Unfortunately you can't police how people parent.
But someone getting behind the wheel and becoming a hazard to others is different.

girlmom21 · 04/03/2022 10:24

@KoalafiedAwesome

For all of those saying no the pub's responsibility - would you say the same if the server was continuing to serve alcohol to someone they knew was over the limit and was going to drive?
You can't possibly know someone's going to drive. Again, that's the individuals responsibility and not the pubs.

If they see someone who's decided they're going to drive once they've left the pub then, again, they should phone the police. But plenty of people will drive to the pub then come and collect their car the following day.

SwissCheddars · 04/03/2022 10:25

I do think the pub has some kind of duty to make the entrance child friendly if they welcome children. Even a sober parent could get distracted for a moment so having a gate as previous poster suggests would be sensible.
On other counts it is up to the agents to supervise their children and people behind the bar can’t be expected to know which patrons are with which children.

Cravey · 04/03/2022 10:26

@KoalafiedAwesome

I’m not saying the pub should look after the kids - I’m asking if the pub should stop serving alcohol to parents when it’s clear they are not supervising their children
I'm a bar owner. We have a duty to stop serving when a customer is too drunk/ had enough. It's a really hard call to make and I've seen it escalate a number of times. As for the children, no duty of care, that's on whoever bought them. I've seen parents drinking coke and not caring where the children are. It's not always down to alcohol, some people think it's a free time session. Shove the kids in the garden and away they go.
Original poster
KoalafiedAwesome · 04/03/2022 10:27

"Parents who are intoxicated while they have a child in their care could be arrested and even face a prison sentence. It is illegal to be drunk and in charge of a child in a public place under the Licensing Act 1902."

Actually it is illegal to be intoxicated whilst caring for a child in a public place.

And regarding Alcohol - here is the advice given wslaw.co.uk/insight/landlords-reminded-of-licence-obligations-to-curb-drink-driving/

OP posts:
CallyfromBlakes7 · 04/03/2022 10:28

The pub isn't responsible for the kids, although I would say that anyone who sees a small child heading for a busy road should grab them!

(although then some stupid parent would shout at the adult for "assaulting" their child - there are some remarkably idiotic people out there)

Iamkmackered1979 · 04/03/2022 10:28

I think any adult who sees a child being neglected - wandering onto busy road/potentially being harmed has a duty of care. I get that people get carried away with drinks but to forget you have a 2 year old wandering about? I have never taken the kids to the pub drinking, we go for a meal then home and I’m usually driving. If you want an afternoon in the pub get a babysitter or one person doesn’t drink. Not sure it’s up to the pub but if they are aware of kids being left to wander off the parents should be asked to leave

girlmom21 · 04/03/2022 10:30

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]"Parents who are intoxicated while they have a child in their care could be arrested and even face a prison sentence. It is illegal to be drunk and in charge of a child in a public place under the Licensing Act 1902."

Actually it is illegal to be intoxicated whilst caring for a child in a public place.

And regarding Alcohol - here is the advice given wslaw.co.uk/insight/landlords-reminded-of-licence-obligations-to-curb-drink-driving/[/quote]
Then you're right and we're all wrong and it's entirely the pubs fault. Is that better?

Every single person here has said it is the parents responsibility and it's really difficult for a pub to know which child is with whom and when each individual has had enough to drink.

user1497207191 · 04/03/2022 10:31

[quote KoalafiedAwesome]"Parents who are intoxicated while they have a child in their care could be arrested and even face a prison sentence. It is illegal to be drunk and in charge of a child in a public place under the Licensing Act 1902."

Actually it is illegal to be intoxicated whilst caring for a child in a public place.

And regarding Alcohol - here is the advice given wslaw.co.uk/insight/landlords-reminded-of-licence-obligations-to-curb-drink-driving/[/quote]
It' the job of the police to arrest and charge people for breaking any criminal law.