To send my eldest to grammar school knowing it’ll be a squeeze?

[Troisfoisfilles]

So my eldest just won a place at a really good grammar school in our area to start year 7 in September which is great.
She did so well in the entrance exam and interview that she was offered a scholarship and we have been awarded a brilliant bursary. Only trouble is, the bursary doesn’t cover everything and even the transport and uniform are a huge expense! It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford any longer 😞.
She is very intelligent and would do well at any school but I know for a fact that she won’t achieve full potential at a state school.
I originally applied for a place for her at the school I teach at. It’s a great school and she would do ok there but I don’t want just ok for her. For a start, she’s really quite eccentric and mature for her age. Kids similar to this at my school don’t really go down that well and are singled out by the others - kids are horrid!
I really believe she needs the small classes, discipline and pushiness she’d get at a grammar.
So am I being unreasonable in sending her?

My DD12 is in a private school.
You can do school fee plans at most schools which means you pay monthly for any fees.

This makes it slightly more manageable for me, despite me having a good job I'm a single mum so it is a stretch.

I know people are saying she would do well anywhere if she's bright but it's not the point. Private schools have much smaller classes, and for girls a single sex environment means they statistically do better academically.

It's a no brainier if you can afford it.

Oh and most parents at the school are normal, as in they are just people with jobs.

whiteworldgettingwhiter
There are no private (fee paying) grammars in the UK. Some private schools are better than others academically.

A quick Google gives these fee paying schools with GRAMMAR in the title:

Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Loughborough, Leicester…..

There will be loads more. In fact all the many places that don’t have the 11+ (most the country).

Yes my dcs go to a private school. However what it is is the old grammar school that was closed down grammar schools were deemed unnecessary. Parents got together and reopened the school, with similar ethos, but as an independent school instead.
I suspect many other schools have a similar history.

150 applications for 60 places doesn't make it sound all that selective but she's clearly bright if she's been offered a full bursary.

I'm a bit sceptical about the affordability of it for your family if bus fares are going to stretch the budget.

You need to do your sums honestly. You're a single parent raising three kids on a teacher's salary. Hopefully your expectation of an increase on salary is more than wishful thinking. In a few years time you'll need to give your second child a chance at the exam, if they should wish. And then there could potentially come a point where you have DD1 in university whilst DD2 and DD3 might be in this same school. Basically, you need to look at the long-term financial picture rather than tightening your belt right now and hoping for the best.

And if neither of the other two children turn out to be as academic as DD1 you can't just think 'phew, that'll save me some money'. They may shine in other areas and should be supported in those accordingly.

It’s a real dilemma OP. Your good school is the “devil you know”. You know it’s strengths and shortcomings.
The grammar school will be trying hard to attract bright kids and unless you know families with children there who you trust to give you a balanced view it’s hard to get the inside view. Even then it’s very dependent on your child and their year group.

As a family our kids have been to 3 primary schools, 2 independent secondaries and 2 comps. The best and worst teachers are spread throughout. The very worst teacher was at the shiny, beautiful independent and the very best at the OK comp.

There are pros and cons to smaller classes and smaller year groups. Your child may find a peer group in a small school or may have more choice in a bigger setting. Some small schools are good with quirky kids whereas some big schools are better.

One of mine hated the Indy they begged to go to. They did well academically but hated the traditional teaching and struggled to find lots of like minded kids there even though made nice friends. DC happier in larger, more vibrant comp.

The fees made my eyes water but were manageable for us. Work out how much you’re monthly top up would be. There were extras for lunch, homework diary (£10 ). Trips were fine because lots of kids didn’t go on the expensive ones.

Don’t assume kids from very wealthy families will have similar goals to your DC. There are often lots of teachers’ kids at schools like the one you describe who are often grounded and hardworking. Check out the fees for staff as paying 1/3 fees for 2 kids is a big dent in a family income.

@kierenthecommunity

Yeah it was a really wild surmise that OP was French given her username and spelling of 'independant'. :massiverolleyes:

Good point
What if another child excels in a different area? A friend of mine has 1 child at Private school and one at State but spends almost as much as school fees on the 2nd child’s sport.
3 children on a single Teachers salary will mean sacrifices for everyone for 1 child to go to a Private school, unless all fees are paid with a scholarship

@Blogblogblogblog

*whiteworldgettingwhiter There are no private (fee paying) grammars in the UK. Some private schools are better than others academically.*

A quick Google gives these fee paying schools with GRAMMAR in the title:

Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Loughborough, Leicester…..

There will be loads more. In fact all the many places that don’t have the 11+ (most the country).

A "grammar school" is a specific thing - a selective state school.

Having grammar in a school name (generally for historic reasons) does not make it a "grammar school". It's fairly crucial to this thread that that the school is question is a fee paying school!

It would be extremely unusual for people going to the schools listed above to describe themselves as going to grammar school as opposed to independent school. Which is why so many have mentioned it.

@GeorgiaGirl52

Words of wisdom from my grandmother: Always get the best health care you can afford and the best education you can afford because they are yours for a lifetime.

Words of wisdom from another Grandmother!

Don't waste your money. A bright child will do well anywhere and when it comes to university admissions, state school kids often benefit from contextual offers as their achievements are rightly recognised.
Spend the money on giving them a fantastic childhood with lots of hobbies and activities.

Also I'd question about how good/ selective this "grammar" actually is. They don't seem to have that many applicants per place really. The independent school my DH teaches at has 8 applicants per place.
Have a good look at it's last inspection report and at the exam results (pre-covid).
Some private schools don't actually perform much better than state schools, despite having bright motivated children from supportive families. That, to me, indicates that the teaching isn't all that good really.

FWIW, we turned down free places at DHs workplace as we didn't feel the school was a good fit for our DC (way too pushy). They all did brilliantly at the local state school and have great careers.

I'm a bit sceptical about the affordability of it for your family if bus fares are going to stretch the budget.

Yes, this is the point that is being overlooked as many responses focus on whether the other 2 children will or will not be able to go to private school. Before that hap[pens, it's about what happens day to day over the next few years.

For me, saying you'd have to spend £50 per child on Christmas presents rather than £100 means that OP is considering some fairly serious budgeting to make this work. Plus the cost of living is going up. And fees go up more than inflation (generally) and the bursary already doesn't cover all the fees. And generally bursaries go down if you earn more, so OP's hope that she will be be promoted may not result in any net improvement in finances for the family.

Lots of people have made the point about giving your children the best education you can afford. Sadly, I don't think OP can afford this education. And it's all very well her sacrificing herself (as at least one PP has said they have). It's quite another to insist her other children must sacrifice for the sake of their older sibling.

"but she's clearly bright if she's been offered a full bursary."

This isn't the case. Bursaries are related to family income, scholarships are based on the ability of the student.

[quote TatianaBis]@kierenthecommunity

Yeah it was a really wild surmise that OP was French given her username and spelling of 'independant'. :massiverolleyes:[/quote]
Don’t know who you’re rolling your eyes at. Having a French user name doesn’t make you French. She may be a French teacher. I do bugger all in the community, I got my name from Terry Wogan.

Like flip did you really think she was French.

@notanothertakeaway

In a post Covid world, with less job security and increasing prices everywhere, I predict (1) fewer parents committing to private school, (2) schools increasing fees and offering fewer bursaries. I think it would be risky to sign up for a financial commitment that's currently just beyond reach and will only become less affordable as time passes

And I take exception to your blanket statement that you "know for a fact" that your DD would struggle at ANY state school, but that's a separate issue

I never said she’d struggle at any state school. I said that she’d struggle at the state school offered in our area. As I said, we live in a very deprived area. Nearly 53% of the students at my secondary are PP (as all of my three are at the minute). There are NO decent state schools here or any where near. And no one can say with certainty that this private school will become less affordable in the future- it’s an unknown quantity at the minute. The one thing I do know is that I will do absolutely everything in my power and beyond to give all 3 DDs the start in life that I didn’t have.

@TheOrigRights

"but she's clearly bright if she's been offered a full bursary."

This isn't the case. Bursaries are related to family income, scholarships are based on the ability of the student.

She won maximum scholarship too. Out of all applicants (including those at the prep school attached to the private school in question), she scored joint second in the exam. She is very clearly VERY bright, hence the reason for all of this!

Well done your DD OP. I think she has to go, and the main reason is that the motivation for this has come from her and not you.

But she's a bright, motivated girl, as I said up thread once she's 13/14 she can earn money through a paper round/ babysitting etc.

If she was a talented musician or athlete would you deny her the chance to succeed in the off chance one of your other kids might also be gifted? I would send her

@MissHavishamsMouldyOldCake

150 applications for 60 places doesn't make it sound all that selective but she's clearly bright if she's been offered a full bursary.

I'm a bit sceptical about the affordability of it for your family if bus fares are going to stretch the budget.

You need to do your sums honestly. You're a single parent raising three kids on a teacher's salary. Hopefully your expectation of an increase on salary is more than wishful thinking. In a few years time you'll need to give your second child a chance at the exam, if they should wish. And then there could potentially come a point where you have DD1 in university whilst DD2 and DD3 might be in this same school. Basically, you need to look at the long-term financial picture rather than tightening your belt right now and hoping for the best.

And if neither of the other two children turn out to be as academic as DD1 you can't just think 'phew, that'll save me some money'. They may shine in other areas and should be supported in those accordingly.

Regarding the school not being that ‘attractive’ because only 3 applicants per place, you are forgetting about the area we live in. This is a very rural area with high poverty- there are not really a huge amount of people here that would even consider this school as an option! It is a fantastic school. One of the main reasons I even ever considered it- 4 years ago, a pupil started in my form at my school in year 7. He was clearly exceedingly bright, scoring pretty much 100% in all exams and working way beyond everyone else in the top sets. The teachers physically couldn’t keep up with him. Instead he was asked to help other students. He became very bored, withdrawn and started school-refusing, making up tummy aches, headaches and all manner of excuses to not attend school. I spoke to his parents often and asked them whether they’d ever considered a grammar/private school for him. They put him in for the exam, he won a full scholarship and has now been there four years and has already taken 2 GCSE’s (getting a grade 9 in both). I have stayed in touch with them as their older daughter was in my class up til she left last year, so while doing parents evenings with them, I asked about their son. They have never regretted their decision and the son in question even says how it’s changed his life.

Also, yes I am a french teacher. My phone often switches to the french keyboard annoyingly!

@Inkyblue123

If she was a talented musician or athlete would you deny her the chance to succeed in the off chance one of your other kids might also be gifted? I would send her

A better analogy would be if she were a talented musician or sportsperson, would you spend a large chunk of your disposable income (and potentially) time on her to the detriment of your other children? Because clearly this does play out in a lot of families, and by and large the other children are not happy about it.

I would mention its no fun being the poor kid in independent school. Been there. I said yanbu it's up to you. If she got a good bursary and it is affordable then it's fine to prioritise education over alton towers!

Be aware fees go up every year and the cost of trips is extortionate.

Speaking as someone whose parents couldn't afford to send me on trips I have opted for selective (state) grammar and plan to let my dc go on all the trips. Easy for me because I have good free options. Around here private school is a bit pointless.

I can afford private and my dc would have been clever enough to get into one of the top independent schools in the country but we drive a normal bmw not a top of the range whatever and we holiday in Portugal and Italy but not on my friends yacht etc. We don't have a massive house. I just CBA with the oneupmanship amongst the parents and my dc feeling inferior.

I would say your school that offers 8 GCSEs is fine for doing that. My independent school did that in the 90s. As an employer I don't care how many GCSE my new hires have. I do prefer good grades. I work for a large international professional services firm. I look at A level grades. I look at work experience and internships.

If you think it will help your dd and she wants to go there and you can afford it by sacrificing luxuries AND you are going to do the same for your other dc then go for it.

Will you be able to afford it for other dc if they don't get a bursary? Cross that bridge when you come to it.

@kierenthecommunity

Like flip did you really think she was French

I did actually. The French spelling/accidental accent are typical French typos. I'm half French myself.

I would mention its no fun being the poor kid in independent school. Been there. I said yanbu it's up to you.

I've done it too and it was absolutely fine. I would not have achieved the same academically at a comprehensive. I still have all my friends from school and no-one can really remember who was wealthy at school.

Maybe keep an eye out for French teacher job vacancies at the private school..... heavy staff discount probably!

Damned if you do/Don't. Can you afford it if fees go up by 10% pa for the next 5 yrs or through to 6th form? What happens if your others get a bursary? We looked at sending our daughter privately due to an inheritance but she would be pressured to make sure the 12k pa plus extras was being 'earned. Couldn't afford the ski trips, safaris etc

I’m always of the belief that in a set of siblings, if one gets offered a scholarship then that opportunity should be grabbed with both hands if possible. It doesn’t really matter who gets offered. Nobody is being favoured. What if the youngest does get offered but the eldest was denied that opportunity? Should the youngest then be denied it out of fairness? Not every child gets offered a scholarship and that’s because not every child has the same potential - this applies in siblings too. You can’t expect one to be held back when they have the opportunity just out of “fairness”.

All that being said, if it’s going to be a struggle financially then that’s another spin on things. You all need to live. But, if I have 4 children and if one of them was offered a scholarship I would want to do everything I can without it majorly impacting on us. So just go through all your finances and see if there’s anything you can do.