Who’s in the wrong? Unsociable or sociable?

[ShittyFingers]

Person A is pretty unsociable. She gets on the bus and looks forward to time alone to sit and think/daydream during her 1 hour journey.

Person B is sociable and looks forward the her 1 hour journey to chat.

Bus has lots of empty seats. Person B decides to sit next to Person A and try to strike up conversation. Person A is polite but makes it obvious she doesn’t want to talk. Person B is a little offended and thinks Person A is a miserable sod. After a few more attempts to make light conversation, person A moves seats. Person B now very upset and this plays on her mind all day.

Let’s say Covid isn’t a thing.

Who is unreasonable?

YABU - person A could have made more effort, it wouldn’t have killed her to chat

YANBU - person Bs wish to socialise doesn’t trump person A’s wish to not socialise

[quote TempleBlossom]@thepeopleversuswork
Extroverts dont ignore other peoples social cues though.
They would chat to the person who was interested and leave the person alone if they werent.
This is someone who is completely ignoring the feelings, needs and social cues of another person.
Talking at them for an hour
Clearly the person has serious issues with how they relate to others,possibly ND.

We however are entitled to maintain our own boundaries about how we interact with others.[/quote]
I understand that... which is why I went out of my way to explain that I thought Person B was completely in the wrong.

I'm not referring to this particular situation. I'm referring to the fact that there's this huge drive (both on here and in RL) to paint all people who enjoy socialising and are socially confident as arseholes who have no social radar. I'm really tired of it and I'm not going to let it pass unchallenged any more. It's just insulting.

I am in the A camp too. I have had man shout at me for not engaging with his idol chat. Also, another who sat next to me at a bus stop... was telling me all sorts of things, said I am a good listener (I was just nodding and smiling), than asked if he could hold my hand until the bus came (I left at that point and missed my bus).

B is the one who is unreasonable. It will do them no harm to sit in silence, or find someone else to talk at on the bus.

Im not referring to this particular situation. I'm referring to the fact that there's this huge drive (both on here and in RL) to paint all people who enjoy socialising and are socially confident as arseholes who have no social radar. I'm really tired of it and I'm not going to let it pass unchallenged any more. It's just insulting

Ok

[quote Gizacluethen]@thepeopleversuswork
Honestly because introverts have been called rude and antisocial and nerds and loners and a million other things. By most of society for God knows how long and are actually a bit sick of it and I think lockdown gave them the breathing space they needed to realise what life could be like if you could just tell the extrovert on the bus to leave you alone instead of sitting there while they talk your ear off for the next hour and sit too close and talk too loud but you can't be rude.[/quote]
Why then is it necessary to be spiteful about those you perceive to be extrovert? I don't think there's any reason why A on the bus was necessarily an extrovert, either -- a significant proportion of non-stop chatterers do so because they're nervous in social situations, are terrified by silence ('Am I boring X? Better talk!') and would have sat beside B because they were afraid of looking rude if they sat elsewhere.

She might be an extrovert. She might be a socially-nervous introvert who is afflicted with verbal diarrhoea in social situations (my mother would do exactly this -- she appears to be unable to stop even in situations where the people involved are either unable or unwilling to talk (monosyllabic black cab drivers, busy waiters in a crowded restaurant). She might be a desperately lonely individual whose partner just died. She might be a tiresome bore whose colleagues dread her arrival because she talks non-stop till the end of the day. We don't have the evidence to say.

Yanbu.

If you don't know someone, sitting beside them and assuming they want to chat to you is quite rude.

She could have asked if you'd mind if she sat by you. But then, you could have chatted to her for five mins then excused yourself, said you had some work to do or whatever.

But it's not your responsibility if she thinks about it all day.

@TempleBlossom

Well if you are ...

About once a week there's a thread on here which goes (roughly): "I Hate People. I don't want to deal with them. Why are extroverts all such arseholes?"

Or alternatively "I'm an introvert. Love Lockdown!!! Can't COVID lockdowns go on for ever?"

Or "I never want to interact with anyone apart from my husband and kids. I hate all other people"

Followed by a long laundry list of such deeply offensive behaviours as people making eye contact on the bus, people commenting on the weather to someone they've known less than a decade or bosses occasionally requiring their employees to come to work.

Some of this is people with genuine social anxiety who are troubled by having to go back to "normal" levels of social interaction. And thus totally understandable.

But a fair chunk of it is people who for whatever reason are threatened by seeing other people having normal social interactions. And the form is to attack them with really vindictive, spiteful comments about the hated "extroverts": basically they're thick, they can't read social cues, they are unresourceful, they they can't function on their own, they are show-offs, etc etc.

It's absolutely everywhere. If I sound exercised about it its because I am - I'm really tired of it. It's spitefulness masquerading as a protected characteristic.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@TempleBlossom

Well if you are ...

About once a week there's a thread on here which goes (roughly): "I Hate People. I don't want to deal with them. Why are extroverts all such arseholes?"

Or alternatively "I'm an introvert. Love Lockdown!!! Can't COVID lockdowns go on for ever?"

Or "I never want to interact with anyone apart from my husband and kids. I hate all other people"

Followed by a long laundry list of such deeply offensive behaviours as people making eye contact on the bus, people commenting on the weather to someone they've known less than a decade or bosses occasionally requiring their employees to come to work.

Some of this is people with genuine social anxiety who are troubled by having to go back to "normal" levels of social interaction. And thus totally understandable.

But a fair chunk of it is people who for whatever reason are threatened by seeing other people having normal social interactions. And the form is to attack them with really vindictive, spiteful comments about the hated "extroverts": basically they're thick, they can't read social cues, they are unresourceful, they they can't function on their own, they are show-offs, etc etc.

It's absolutely everywhere. If I sound exercised about it its because I am - I'm really tired of it. It's spitefulness masquerading as a protected characteristic.[/quote]
Cant say Ive read anything like that.
I would describe myself as a sociable introvert.
I enjoy being around people to a point but also enjoy being alone.
I think when things annoy us this much , its probably touched a nerve...

@Goldfishmountainclimber

Gosh, I am really surprised by the responses here. I come from another country where the social norm would definitely be Person B’s behaviour. It would be frowned upon to behave like Person A. This thread may be giving me personal insight into behaviour I have encountered in the UK that I have been surprised by.

So if a stranger sits next to you on the bus you have to talk to them for the entire journey?

@Gizacluethen

I love your balls to actually move! We're you in the window seat and have to get passed her? 🤣

Unfortunately extroverts seem to think think they're polite and sociable and introverts are rude and ignorant. Like you don't have a right to not want to chat or hug.

Yes, I made out I was getting off at an upcoming stop but then sheepishly sat down again in another seat 😂 I’m very socially awkward 😂

@TempleBlossom

Bloody right its touched a nerve. I don't like indiscriminate nastiness or prejudice. Particularly when its in the guise of sticking up for the little guy.

If I was person A I'd say hello and then say "Sorry I'm not in the mood to chat."

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@TempleBlossom

Bloody right its touched a nerve. I don't like indiscriminate nastiness or prejudice. Particularly when its in the guise of sticking up for the little guy.[/quote]
It's just very lazy. I absolutely get that introverts have long been 'othered' as quiet/dull/boring/ inadequate etc, and it's good that there's now more of a balance, but the kneejerk nasty stereotyping of extroverts as loud, crass, overbearing, insensitive, coercively social etc by people who identify as introverts on Mn doesn't do introversion any favours, either. It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

@Grinling

the kneejerk nasty stereotyping of extroverts as loud, crass, overbearing, insensitive, coercively social etc by people who identify as introverts on Mn doesn't do introversion any favours, either. It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

This in giant neon lights.

Spite, envy and small-mindedness.

if she was a lonely old lady

🤨

the kneejerk nasty stereotyping of extroverts as loud, crass, overbearing, insensitive, coercively social etc by people who identify as introverts on Mn doesn't do introversion any favours, either. It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

I couldn't agree with you more

A classic example of a needy extrovert not being able to understand or respect a quiet introvert. They are so fucking irritating.

And this ^^ is a classic example of what @Grinling was referring to.

@cherrysthename

This thread brings to mind Planes Trains and Automobiles

I'm going totally against my previous posts now but I'd make an absolute exception for the late John Candy!

the kneejerk nasty stereotyping of extroverts as loud, crass, overbearing, insensitive, coercively social etc by people who identify as introverts on Mn doesn't do introversion any favours, either. It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

Spite?

The behaviour of some extroverts is a feature, not a bug.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@Grinling

the kneejerk nasty stereotyping of extroverts as loud, crass, overbearing, insensitive, coercively social etc by people who identify as introverts on Mn doesn't do introversion any favours, either. It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

This in giant neon lights.

Spite, envy and small-mindedness.[/quote]
Why’s is there a backlash against certain extroverts? Because of utter shite like that. Because plenty of people, like you, obviously believe you are a better person than someone like me. Why the absolute fuck would I be envious?

I am not shy.
I am not socially awkward. I don’t ‘struggle socially’. If I choose to, I can slip on a mask and seamlessly join in with most social situations.

I’m not unsociable because I’m rubbish at being sociable.
I’m unsociable because I find many people, particularly those randomers who like to prattle on with small talk, very dull. I would rather be reading, listening to something, or even thinking.

I could be lonely in a large group of people. I could never be lonely with books to read, animals to look after or mountains to climb. I’m an introvert. I don’t need fixing.

I think the answers on mumsnet are going to be skewed in favour of Person A, because this is the safe space for people admitting to not answering the door, avoiding people, and so on.

But my opinion is that while both committed social faux pas, Person B was the rudest because walking off and sitting somewhere else is about as cutting and unkind as it can get. Its only a bus journey, presumably its only happened once, how hard is it to be polite for the duration of a bus journey? I think its a shame if people don't talk to each other any more, there used to be more glue in our society and more tolerance of people who needed a chat. I realise it can be annoying but I don't think one bus journey of chat is completely intolerable.

@AlisonDonut

The behaviour of some extroverts is a feature, not a bug

Ditto some introverts. What's your point?

Some introverts are arseholes, some extroverts are arseholes. Neither has a monopoly on shitty behaviour.

But its become fashionable to be able to launch into extroverts with all manner of kneejerk nastiness and accuse them on a blanket basis of being stupid, lacking in empathy, rude, selfish, entitled etc, but its OK "because society is designed for extroverts" (so that's OK then).

As if introverts are a persecuted minority claiming long overdue war reparations for harm that was done to them over centuries. It's complete, self-serving horseshit. It's an excuse for insecure people to have a pop at people who they perceive to have had an easier ride.

It simply looks like spite directed at people who don't struggle socially.

This thread is starting to remind me of the expression that if all you've ever known is privilege, equality starts to look like oppression. From the OP Person A is pretty unsociable. She gets on the bus and looks forward to time alone to sit and think/daydream during her 1 hour journey. That's the OP herself describing her own behaviour as 'unsociable'. That's how ingrained the prejudice against introverts is, that something that is in fact perfectly normal and valid becomes 'anti-social'.

As an introvert, I have no problem making friends. I'm happy socialising. I'm not socially awkward. In fact, friends will push me forward as the person who doesn't mind going first, speaking first, entering a public space they're worried about being in. In your own attempts to stand up for extroverts, you imply that introverts all 'struggle socially'. See how embedded your opinions are?

And yet I do not, as an introvert, struggle socially. That's not what the definition of an introvert is. To recharge my batteries I require down time away from people. That's it. I'll give public addresses to hundreds of people. I'll go to parties. I'll chair meetings. And then I want to go home and not chat to people. That's not 'struggling socially'. So if you're going to get your arse in your hand about the way extroverts are being described on MN, maybe have a closer look at your own prejudices first.

What we need to recognise more is the extent to which needing to be around people to recharge is normalised, whereas needing downtime is stigmatised. Needing downtime does not make you socially awkward, or inept. If you struggle, it's because the world is organised for temperaments other than yours, not because there's something innately wrong with you.

I don’t think that’s it at all. I think the issue is the significant overlap between extroverts and the overly entitled/ narcs.

Michelle can fuck off. She's not 'just sociable', she's rude!

Person B is unreasonable. She should not assume people want to talk

Person B is unreasonable.

It is not the responsibility of Person A to entertain Person B.

Person B should get a kindle to entertain themselves when no chatty companion is available.