Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

@Why2why

I don’t understand why there is so much energy and effort expended to deny that racism exists in Eastern Europe or that people of colour are being discriminated against as they try to flee Ukraine. Can someone explain why this is happening on this thread?

And why is there so much energy and effort to deny the clearly reported experience of these people and to downgrade this violent experience as not being as important as the experience of white Ukrainians?

Can some explain why in this war black and brown people’s lives do not matter?

You should've seen the Christian copper vs Amy cooper thread the resurfaced a year ago. So infuriating, my cheeks were flushed red. There's always some who are more upset about calling out racism than actual racism.

@kingat

The thread seems to have moved on again. Polish news report today that the reason for this is a) children go first (rightly so) they are waiting for hours in cold, they are less capable than adult person of any sex/nationailty of making this journey b) men are not allowed out, it takes manpower to check peoples passports c)it is total chaos there, so they want to get the children out first.

Are there no black/Asian children and black/Asian women? Do they not exist or are they so unimportant that they might as well not exist?

@Why2why

I don’t understand why there is so much energy and effort expended to deny that racism exists in Eastern Europe or that people of colour are being discriminated against as they try to flee Ukraine. Can someone explain why this is happening on this thread?

And why is there so much energy and effort to deny the clearly reported experience of these people and to downgrade this violent experience as not being as important as the experience of white Ukrainians?

Can some explain why in this war black and brown people’s lives do not matter?

Show me where exactly anything like this was said on the thread?

I thought racism in former eastern Europe countries was a know issues?
Because movement of people was so inhibited under the disgusting Soviet prison million's had to endure with no freedom of travel etc. So people literally just didn't get exposure to people from different nations?

I have a friend who looks like princess Diana , literally in China.she Said venturing out of cities has led to her being pushed , spat on, people crossing the road to avoid her... ranted at. Then, stroked, touched.and people wanting a photo with her! She's about 6 ft so not easy to ignore.

Are there no black/Asian children and black/Asian women? Do they not exist or are they so unimportant that they might as well not exist?
In Ukraine, almost none. The non-white population is mainly students of quite hardcore subjects (medicine or engineering), there are very few of them who decide to start a family in parallel to their studies.
Single women are not prioritised when it comes to the evacuation either. It is "women and children" as a group, i.e. women and their children. The difference is that men are not allowed through at all.

Denying racism. Denying that people of colour are being denied access across the border. Or using excuses why....I am for example pretty sure the black woman with a nursing baby should have been allowed over the border immediately within the previous example of the order people are allowed to cross

Tigers really? That old chesnut

On the news they are reporting that the UN is concerned about the racist treatment.

The one thing threads like this reminds me is that one can never be lulled into thinking racism is receding from society. It’s there, here, and everywhere.

@forinborin

Are there no black/Asian children and black/Asian women? Do they not exist or are they so unimportant that they might as well not exist? In Ukraine, almost none. The non-white population is mainly students of quite hardcore subjects (medicine or engineering), there are very few of them who decide to start a family in parallel to their studies. Single women are not prioritised when it comes to the evacuation either. It is "women and children" as a group, i.e. women and their children. The difference is that men are not allowed through at all.

Clearly you are ignorant of the examples of women of colour with their children being held back.

Maybe you can explain their experiences away or perhaps you might Ben want to deny they even exist.

When I was online earlier (not MN) this popped up:

Ukraine is a European country with European values

I don't know who the advertiser was but it was something about supporting Ukraine. Of course we should feel supportive of a country under invasion but that advert was shocking. As if European values are inherently superior to Asian or African ones. Sad to see that sort of thing.

@Tigersonvaseline

With all the respect this post shows that most of you have no knowledge and judge through Anglo Saxon lens. It's called westplaining.

Poland, opposite to Ukraine was never a Soviet state. And there was movement of people. From communist Vietnam and sympathetic to Soviet Russia Arab countries.

It's obvious there is racism, and the Ukraine crisis has highlighted it.

I should add that the advert I saw wasn't from Ukraine. It was a UK advertiser.

It is absolutely correct that women with children and the elderly be allowed to pass through first - they are less mobile, and least able to tolerate queuing in the cold.

I have every sympathy for the students - it must be terrifying to be without support in a country that is suddenly at war when you speak little of the language. I think there is a large degree of youthful ignorance/shock happening - I have read complaints from students saying that they were queuing for hours, that they have had to leave school work and possessions behind, that they are only being given two week visas to Poland/Moldova/Hungary. They all have homes to fly home to. Ukranians leaving Ukraine are leaving behind loved ones, homes and their country, possibly forever. The students fleeing and the Ukranians fleeing are in the middle of completely different experiences.

I am not black and I am not there, so I cannot say that individuals have or have not experienced racism. Of course there are racist people everywhere, and suddenly being in the middle of a war will bring out the best or the worst in people - people rarely put others first in times of crisis.

Re no black people in Poland/staring - there are black and mixed race Polish celebrities (admittedly not many). Aleksandra Szwed has been on TV for over 20 years at this point, and Poland does air international programs, so it's not like Poles are unaware of the existence of black people. Krakow is full of tourists of all nationalities - I've never seen anyone openly stare at anyone else.

Clearly you are ignorant of the examples of women of colour with their children being held back.
How many women of colour with children are there in the whole of Ukraine, do you think?

I thought racism in former eastern Europe countries was a know issues?
Because movement of people was so inhibited under the disgusting Soviet prison million's had to endure with no freedom of travel etc. So people literally just didn't get exposure to people from different nations?

Movement was not exactly limited, when Stalin was relocating/resettling whole populations (with a view to decreasing/exterminating them).

As PP have said, there was a long history of foreign (especially black) students coming to the USSR , hence institutions such as the Patrice Lumumba International Friendship University- a widely respected university, originally set up for people from so-called "third world" countries. A racist concept in itself no doubt, but many scholars from around the world did past through Soviet universities- and still do post-USSR. It's not unusual in the slightest to see black people, Indian people, Arab peoples studying and working there. I can't say what racism they might face, but in Russia, the worst racism is 100% directed at Tajiks, Uzbeks and other "gastarbeiters," who do all the shitwork for peanuts.

Also, Russia alone has more than a hundred ethnic peoples. It's far from a white hegemony.

They can't explain. It isn't in the narrative they understand.

@LondonWolf This is what the British did. Individual soldiers may have PTSD but the fall of Srebernica and the genocide that followed makes the 'never again' slogan of the Holocaust a hollow promise.
This guy was the commander of the British battalion in Bosnia and he openly admits they failed to stop the genocide:
www.bobstewart.org.uk/news/remembering-srebrenica-speech

More for you to read:
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/04/how-britain-and-us-abandoned-srebrenica-massacre-1995

www.france24.com/en/20150709-srebrenica-bosnia-muslims-dutch-UN-intelligence-france-clinton

Also, Russia alone has more than a hundred ethnic peoples. It's far from a white hegemony.

How many are black? Plus there's enough racism to go around, it doesn't tell us how they're treated. You say yourself other ethnic groups have a bad time.

Who are they? Primitive Poles and Ukrainians?
Would you accept that while racism is happening Poland and Ukraine have different history and British or American understanding of race relations is not useful.
But this thread is not about unique racial dynamics in Poland or Ukraine. Its whole purpose is to feel better by bashing barbarians from the East. All by people who even dont understand the difference between East Block and Soviet Union.

Today, antisemitic BBC mentioned 'Soviet' Jews. Just how knowledgeable everyone is here.

Can you share those examples?

@spittycup

Also, Russia alone has more than a hundred ethnic peoples. It's far from a white hegemony.

How many are black? Plus there's enough racism to go around, it doesn't tell us how they're treated. You say yourself other ethnic groups have a bad time.

Some of the other ethnic groups are treated appllingly, yes. Elsewhere, treated more or less as an irrelevance. If you were in Irkutsk and wanted to study the native language of, say, the Buryats, I doubt very much you'd be readily able to find any printed learning materials without visiting an archive. There's a fundmental lack of respect for the native peoples.

But this thread is about black people, and I apologise for the derail. But please don't paint the former USSR as "white"-- that would be to erase many, many peoples.

@ABitBesotted

You're right Russia is a massive place and there will be diverse ethnic groups but in the most populated areas it's going to be mostly white, and unfortunately they won't always be treated fairly

(Don't want to derail either, sorry, just pointing out of these groups can face hardship it's pretty likely for black people who stand out even more and have a lot of negative stereotypes perpetuated)

@Why2why

I don’t understand why there is so much energy and effort expended to deny that racism exists in Eastern Europe or that people of colour are being discriminated against as they try to flee Ukraine. Can someone explain why this is happening on this thread?

And why is there so much energy and effort to deny the clearly reported experience of these people and to downgrade this violent experience as not being as important as the experience of white Ukrainians?

Can some explain why in this war black and brown people’s lives do not matter?

It really is not that, but if I have to feel most for someone it would be the children. It is crap for everyone, everyone is pushing to get on the trains, people stand hours in line in freezing weather, it is not like everyone else leaves and the people of colour are left behind. Plenty of people are still unable to leave. I want everyone to be safe, but simply cant imagine twenty something man pushing ahead of small children in the queue. I am Polish, there is the same level of racist there as there is the UK against Eastern Europeans.

@kingat

Can you share those examples?

Why? If you want them, you can fund them. They’re not that difficult. Have you been ready or listening to the news? Have you been listening to the experiences of those who tell it?