Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

@kingat, I have many Polish friends who will say, without being asked, that Poland is an extremely racist country.

In the UK, many people of colour say that their experience of overt racism is often at the hands of Eastern Europeans.

As far as I’m concerned, the idea that any country or person should celebrate or feel comfort in their country being less racist than another is ridiculous. So I’m not condemning Eastern European countries any more than I would the UK, the US, etc.

But it is not okay to gloss over, erase or deny the experiences of people who tell their story of being discriminated against as they try to leave Ukraine even when they are accompanied by children (albeit children of colour who apparently don’t count).

You said there are black children not allowed through. No, I have not seen them. I have only seen young men.

@kingat

You said there are black children not allowed through. No, I have not seen them. I have only seen young men.

Well continue to see what you want to see.

Sorry, i dont know why I cant quote properly.
What I am saying is, there are plenty of people, children still in Ukraine.
I am asking for an example of black child being unable to leave just because they are black. Like managed to turn up at the train station/boarder and turned away.

You keep saying that is happening, but you cant prove it. The news and papers are talking about students not children.

The other day Nick Robinson spoke to black people at the border who reported they were having problems leaving. Tonight Lewis Goodall spoke to people on Newsnight who were having similar problems. They are both respected journalists who would not report this if it was not happening.

There were similar problems during the war in Syria when refugees took complicated land routes in their attempt to reach Germany as they were prevented from claiming asylum in other countries.

An added complication is that Ukraine has accused Belarus of sending refugees and other migrants into Ukraine as part of a campaign approved by Putin to create political discord.

As another poster said, we can simultaneously disapprove of the war in Ukraine and the dubious Russian tactics which involve targeting civilians while rejecting racism and discrimination towards people seeking to escape Ukraine who are not White Ukrainian citizens.

Part of the debate about the veracity of these reports comes from our insular news reporting. There are refugees from many countries in Ukraine. International students have been encouraged to study in the country. Ukraine itself is an ethnically diverse country (as I think I pointed out on a thread that got deleted) so there are longstanding ethnic disputes that date back to the many border disputes in Ukraine's history. However, we mostly don't hear about this. Instead we have the Conservative MP Edward Leigh saying he doesn't want to help refugees from Ukraine because there are already 'too many Eastern Europeans in Lincolnshire'.

@Tigersonvaseline

I thought racism in former eastern Europe countries was a know issues? Because movement of people was so inhibited under the disgusting Soviet prison million's had to endure with no freedom of travel etc. So people literally just didn't get exposure to people from different nations?

I have a friend who looks like princess Diana , literally in China.she Said venturing out of cities has led to her being pushed , spat on, people crossing the road to avoid her... ranted at. Then, stroked, touched.and people wanting a photo with her! She's about 6 ft so not easy to ignore.

It is a known issue I dont know why people are surprised or shocked by this.

Its interesting because Ukraine is a crossroads so is used to having people of all colours and nationalities travel through it but its not that different to other eastern european countries in how it views 'others'

And I dont know why threads about this keep disappearing because you can have sympathy with what is happening in Ukraine at the moment, to the nation and society but also disagree with their racism.

Those guys made it
mobile.twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1498638480980811777?s=21

I think it's fair to acknowledge that racism played a massive part in the students' delayed evacuation, exacerbated by their slightly complicated visa situation which normally wouldn't be an issue (hopefully) but it's obviously chaos at the borders. Their situation isn't the only one where people should be allowed to leave and weren't though.

People are bristling I think at the overall tone of the thread where pretty much all EE are condemned for being racist and all of the tremendous efforts which are put in by the same people are completely ignored.

The medical student sort of did this as well. She was rightly appalled at being made to wait longer than those around her just for being black. She was just as appalled when they had to wait to gain access as they are not Ukrainian and the paperwork they had from the Nigerian (I believe) embassy wasn't adequate. This is despite being taken out of the cold while it was sorted and someone more senior having to look into it.

Yes, I am not denying black people have problems leaving, I am saying lots of people have problems leaving. Children/Eldery should take priority over young adults who can wait longer in the queue.

Black people are facing problems leaving because they are black

Not because of other reasons

There is no excuses for this the reason why is racism

We are well aware some people are struggling to escape more than others for various reasons but it’s not because they are white

@barms90

An interesting thread written by people who have prob never been to Eastern Europe. Currently I am in Poland and I can tell you that the queue at the boarder is 30 hours...people from Ukraine are allowed to hop over the boarder without much trouble..none Ukranie people obvs are going to require more securtiy checks. What I do know....people here have been offering rooms in their houses to people (I have not seen it specified that you must be white) collection points are overflowing with donations, people have been driving to the boarder to offer lifts to people and help in anyway. What has everyone commenting here done!!! Also to the lady that said Eastern Europeans stare at her....I know this is rude (I live in Poland and speak English in supermarkets and people stand with their mouths open) I can tell you that in my town 1 hour from Warsaw we have no poc....If a poc came into the town people would stare just becasue for some of them it would be the first time they had seen in person a poc.

I’m from Eastern Europe and lived in Africa: in Botswana I was stared at, my hair touched, by random strangers because they had never seen a white person before. I wonder if that counts as racist to the PP? Or not racist because I’m not black? I’m jewish btw.

We’re not black but middle eastern. I’m beyond sickened by what my sister went through in the past 5 days in Kyiv. It’s her fourth year doing dentistry. Before the invasion they received a warning from the dean that any students who will leave because they’re scared of a war will have their name taken off the register forever. They even refused to grant days off for students who lost their loved ones back home and wanted to say a final goodbye. When the invasion started the racism against non white students became staggeringly clear. My sister was denied boarding trains and buses alongside other north African students. People watched it and no one did anything. They were called all sorts of names.It is making me terribly sick to think of it. After a fight which involved an exchanged threatening of knives between some students and the transport staff, they were finally allowed to leave and have reached romania at 7pm. Racism didn’t die and I feel so so so sorry for the poor students who endured it during these scary times.

@dolphinsden

If countries like the UK, France and US news channels can broadcast with statements being made that the war in Ukraine is unacceptable because it's a European country with people with blonde hair and blue eyes then what hope is there in EE? Such statements were made that the war is wrong because the victims look like us and have Netflix and instagram accounts and it's not in some remote country anymore and such statements like "this isn't Afghanistan or Iraq, these are middle class white European people fleeing, not Syrians".

Even during a war, I'm not one bit surprised that the Black and Indian people and other nationals are being left out during the evacuation. If a life doesn't matter in another part of the world, that life wouldn't matter even if it's in a European country in the middle of a war zone. White Europe is racist. Christian West is racist because we've seen that when a war broke out in the middle of Europe in the 90's but the population was Muslim so it doesn't matter because Muslims are disposable just like the Black, Indian, Syrian, Afghan and Iraqi population because they aren't white with blue eyes. Bosnians and Kosovar's had blonde and blue eyes and were bang in the middle of Europe but they were Muslims this time so again they didn't make it to the white mans threshold for sympathy.

I absolutely agree with this. I'm from EE , Asian but have European features. I have been told numerous times as a child that I'm lucky that I don't look like my original race. I also never reveal that my parents are Muslims .

[quote deragod]@Tigersonvaseline

With all the respect this post shows that most of you have no knowledge and judge through Anglo Saxon lens. It's called westplaining.

Poland, opposite to Ukraine was never a Soviet state. And there was movement of people. From communist Vietnam and sympathetic to Soviet Russia Arab countries.[/quote]

Between 1952 and 1989 Poland was ruled by a communist government established after the Red Army's takeover of Polish territory from German occupation in World War II.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/EasternBloc_BorderChange38-48.svg

@deragod What free movement was there in the Eastern Bloc? I’d love to know. Until 1989 there was none.

You are proving my point. No knowledge of region, culture, any of three languages heard the most on the border. Lack of basics facts.
But first to comment.
Eastern Block, and being a satellite country was a different thing to being a state of a Soviet Union.

@DoorWasAJar
Who said free movement?
Movement from allied countries. Refugees from Greece, students and workers from Vietnam, students from Africa (mainly from Arab states).

Impier

I thought the borders were closed by Ukraine to men of fighting age, with the expectation they defend their country. Isn't any male making his way to the border going to be suspected of being a draft dodger

They're not Ukrainian and must have passports with them

How do you explain black women being stopped?

‘ They have a Jewish president, and a significant Jewish population.’

Remarkable considering the history of anti-semitism & pogroms in Ukraine before, during & after the Holocaust.

I heard a report on LBC from a Black British woman whose Black British brother (there on holiday) has been trapped at the main Kyiv train station for three days and refused entry on a train despite having a valid ticket. While white Ukrainians are allowed on instead, including men, no questions asked.

So it is not just Nigerian students with 'inadequate paperwork', as one poster suggested, this is happening to. It is anyone who looks Black, Asian, Middle Eastern.

It's racism.

@ElliePhillips

I heard a report on LBC from a Black British woman whose Black British brother (there on holiday) has been trapped at the main Kyiv train station for three days and refused entry on a train despite having a valid ticket. While white Ukrainians are allowed on instead, including men, no questions asked.

So it is not just Nigerian students with 'inadequate paperwork', as one poster suggested, this is happening to. It is anyone who looks Black, Asian, Middle Eastern.

It's racism.

Tickets are not accepted on the trains anymore. White men are not allowed to board. I don't know how many times to repeat this.

@UniCred1

We’re not black but middle eastern. I’m beyond sickened by what my sister went through in the past 5 days in Kyiv. It’s her fourth year doing dentistry. Before the invasion they received a warning from the dean that any students who will leave because they’re scared of a war will have their name taken off the register forever. They even refused to grant days off for students who lost their loved ones back home and wanted to say a final goodbye. When the invasion started the racism against non white students became staggeringly clear. My sister was denied boarding trains and buses alongside other north African students. People watched it and no one did anything. They were called all sorts of names.It is making me terribly sick to think of it. After a fight which involved an exchanged threatening of knives between some students and the transport staff, they were finally allowed to leave and have reached romania at 7pm. Racism didn’t die and I feel so so so sorry for the poor students who endured it during these scary times.

If students take out knives out on the evacuation staff, I don't think it should come as a surprise that they are denied boarding then. My own female relative has been denied boarding four times in the last three days. In one case, taken off the train after boarding as a woman with a newborn child came. She's still there, wasn't able to leave.

[quote DoorWasAJar]@deragod What free movement was there in the Eastern Bloc? I’d love to know. Until 1989 there was none.[/quote]
Free movement is a bit of a stretch, but there was movement. You could apply to the state to go on holiday, or to study abroad as a student. Plenty of citizens did this and then never came back - significant numbers left (for example) Poland prior to 1989 to settle in other countries (including the UK).

@forinborin "Tickets are not accepted on the trains anymore. White men are not allowed to board.
I don't know how many times to repeat this."

Oh really? Then how do you explain Maksim Chmerkovskiy taking a train out to safety yesterday? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dwts-maksim-chmerkovskiy-ukraine-fleeingnn_621de637e4b06e1cc5947f95/amp

Why is it so hard to admit that some police and officials are being racist? It doesn't negate Ukrainian suffering to admit that there is unfairness at play too.

[quote ElliePhillips]@forinborin "Tickets are not accepted on the trains anymore. White men are not allowed to board.
I don't know how many times to repeat this."

Oh really? Then how do you explain Maksim Chmerkovskiy taking a train out to safety yesterday? [[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dwts-maksim-chmerkovskiy-ukraine-fleeing]]nn_621de637e4b06e1cc5947f95/amp

Why is it so hard to admit that some police and officials are being racist? It doesn't negate Ukrainian suffering to admit that there is unfairness at play too.
[/quote]
Maksim story could be corruption (or maybe some strings were pulled for him, which is effectively the same). There is a known price for getting out of the city as a man, well out of reach for ordinary citizens. Or, maybe, he was prioritised due to being some sort of celebrity due to PR reasons. He says in his own statement that it broke him to see children being torn apart from their fathers. Well, I hope he can live with it.

I fully admit that some police and officials are very likely being racist, if you read my posts, I even linked the official apology from Ukrainian authorities for their behaviour. What I am trying to argue with is that it is the only, or even the main factor at play here, or there is a systematic state policy against them. I am (truly, not trying to be disingenuous) very sorry that it hasn't been a five-star experience for many foreign students, and that people were horrible to them - I fully accept this likely had happened, the war doesn't bring the best out of anyone. There is some resentment on the ground against foreigners in the country, as most of them were repeatedly told to leave, and there were means for them to leave, but they stayed behind, and are taking resources away from people who have fewer options. Russian families are treated awfully at the moment, through no fault of their own. Foreign citizens of Ukrainian descent are treated horribly - there are British Ukrainian mums who went there with kids for a half term break ffs, ignoring everything. I even learned about the new trend of "danger tourists" - young men who fly into conflict zones for a dose of adrenalin (and then often find themselves unable to deal with the real situation).

Not a single evacuation story I have heard over the last couple of days has been a walk in the park.