Pre-teen daughter suddenly identifying as 'non binary'.

[PatButchersEarring]

Such a first world problem, particularly in light of recent world events, but our pre-teen (12 year old) daughter has recently decided that she's non binary, has asked us to call her by a different name and refer to her as they/them.

It is all out of the blue. Up until 1 year or so ago, she was 'tom boy' ish, but generally happy in her own skin. Before this, quite typically 'girly', in the way little girls often are. I would add though, we are aware of gender stereotyping and have always actively sought to make her aware that gender stereotypes are no more than just that.

Now, we have discovered she is self harming and wants to be known by a different (non gendered) name with neutral pronouns etc.

Several of her same age friends are also identifying as the opposite gender from their biological sex. One of her female friends is declaring herself to be a 'gay male' i.e. her biologically female friend identifies as a boy and is attracted to boys. 'He' has already had several (non official) name changes.

Parents of aforementioned children seem to be in support of this.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but my stance is that if you're not comfortable with your 'gender' then it's the perceived gender roles which need to be changed, not the person's identity.

I don't know what to do for the best. Why oh why is this even an issue for a child who has not even gone through puberty?

I really hope this is just a phase. Is it a fashion? The new rebellion? 2022's equivalent of smoking behind the bike sheds?

Anyone else been through this? We have sought counselling for her BTW, specifically in light of the self harm.

Sorry- not really an AIBU.

Not sure you can police how other people feel about their own bodies

@PatButchersEarring totally get it. DD at 11 In the space of 8 months told us she was lesbian, bisexual, non-binary and then transgender. When I asked why, she said If she wasn’t she was homophobic or transphobic. She told me everyone was homophobic. I was horrified at some of the information she was taking as fact. The last straw was when she said she was transgender, not because I would be ashamed but because I know people who have fought hard to be recognised as the opposite gender to which they were born. It was all so quick and she was telling her sister to call her by a new name. Following a chat we went shopping and she is showing me clothes she loves some of which were very feminine, when I queried if this meant she was still trans she said no. I think it’s a dangerous time for kids, I won’t blindly do what she wants because I think she needs to be challenged so that I can understand where she is coming from but also so that she has the opportunity to work through her feelings. You can still support without making it even more confusing.

@Momicrone

Not sure you can police how other people feel about their own bodies

You can't police it no. But you can stop giving it legitimacy.

My apologies. I can't, for the life of me, untangle that.

I don't see what's so difficult for you.

You told someone they were wrong to use unfeminine.

But they were doing so in response to people saying that it was the girls who don't fit into the feminine stereotype/feel they don't fit the expectations of girls that were identifying as non-binary... and that poster said "but they aren't all unfeminine/some are feminine" mesning it doesn't necessarily work as the previous posters were saying it does for all those kids.

So it was essentially
"The girls who identify as non-binary just don't feel feminine, don't like femininity and don't recognise themselves there, and then they wrongly attribute that to not being a woman"

"But all the girls who identify as non-binary aren't unfeminine?"

I don't see the issue with what she said, she was just directly going against the idea that these NB girls identify that way because they don't see themselves in femininity, as pps had said.

And saying that doesn't express suprise that "even pretty girls are no-binary" because "feminine" doesn't imply you're pretty, and being "unfeminine" doesn't imply "she's not pretty". So I'm not sure what your last comment about "it expresses surprise that even pretty girls do this" means.

Do you also think lesbians referring to themselves as femme because of its association with femininity is also abhorrent, e.g. butch/femme, or stud? "Butch" is exactly like saying "not feminine, more masculine" it's just a different word.

It's social contagion.

100% this.

How many people at school do you recall saying they were trans or non-binary? I don't remember any at all.

Suddenly, in the space of a few years, there are many young teenagers who are declaring themselves to be one of the above.

You can't police it no. But you can stop giving it legitimacy.

This. But they seem to think they can police others thoughts and language.

I use sex based pronouns for everyone because it’s none of my business how they present or feel about their body. Presenting in a certain way and feeling in a way you imagine women/men feel doesn’t make you a woman or a man. We need certain spaces to remain sex based in order to be safe. Feeling/dressing a certain shouldn’t mean entry into safe spaces.

Gender will never be something I validate for anyone because i don’t believe in it and I don’t have to.

It's not true for ANYONE. There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body.

The PP you are replying to didn't even say that some people are born in the wrong body.

They said some people may feel that way, or describe the way they are feeling in those terms (that's how it reads to me).

They didn't state that it's a fact that people are born in wrong bodies, did she? So I don't know why you've replied to her as if that's what she said.

Not buying this nonsense. They are children and it’s a phase. Aged 10 I decided I wanted to be a boy, clothes, hair, name etc. Thankfully it was the 70’s and I was mostly ignored. Suggest you do the same.

You can't police other people's feelings

[quote itsjustnotok]@PatButchersEarring totally get it. DD at 11 In the space of 8 months told us she was lesbian, bisexual, non-binary and then transgender. When I asked why, she said If she wasn’t she was homophobic or transphobic. She told me everyone was homophobic. I was horrified at some of the information she was taking as fact. The last straw was when she said she was transgender, not because I would be ashamed but because I know people who have fought hard to be recognised as the opposite gender to which they were born. It was all so quick and she was telling her sister to call her by a new name. Following a chat we went shopping and she is showing me clothes she loves some of which were very feminine, when I queried if this meant she was still trans she said no. I think it’s a dangerous time for kids, I won’t blindly do what she wants because I think she needs to be challenged so that I can understand where she is coming from but also so that she has the opportunity to work through her feelings. You can still support without making it even more confusing.[/quote]
The information these kids are getting is so age inappropriate, and often totally incoherent.

A while ago I was reading some stories of detransitioners, and one of the things I noticed was how many of them, even well into the teen years, seem to have accepted a very strange view on what it meant to be non-bigoted, and also hierarchies of oppression. Many mentioned actually thinking that being LGBT+ as "better" than being straight, as if is was morally better. And the same with other identity groups.

I had never thought before that young people might understand what they learn in school in quite that way, but it became clear to me that a certain percentage do, and it causes them a lot of struggles in how they think about the world.

@Hollyhead

Tell her everyone is non binary because gender is a social construct and to stop thinking she’s so special.

I'm sorry but I agree with this. It really is as simple as that. perhaps you could look into the ways people in different countries and different eras used to define genders? I find when I am overwhelmed with things out of my control (so in this instance, how women are treated worse than men which I think is one of the main reasons girls are rejecting being female) I look on YouTube and watch videos about the history of whatever I'm worrying about. so there are videos about different fashion in different eras, how blue used to be for girls and pink for boys, high heels used to be for men or something and try to talk about how what she is rejection (being a girl) is actually not what she is rejecting at all, what she is rejecting is being the weaker sex, being disadvantaged by her sex, being stereotyped into being a pink fluffy caring little girl.

So if you could make a list of all things she likes that are 'boys interests' and go through and see the origins, or think deeper about how it doesn't mean anything different countries or times.
My children are just a bit too young for this but there is definitely something brewing in the older year groups so I'm trying to think about how I'm going to approach it and when I was younger and going through my discovery stage in my teens (I was a late developer) I had a trans friend and I think I was too rash in being accepting of him/her going into the girls bathroom, sleeping with the girls in sleepovers, having access to us as a female when he was flitting in-between being a girl and a boy and I know I would have bitten my mums head off for even suggesting this may not be a permanent change in him or to be careful as he still had a penis etc.
I'm rambling but, It's tricky and I hope this helps a little bit.

Sorry just wanted to add that there was a similar trend with the girls but not the boys where app of my friends (including me) came out as bisexual or a lesbian. Every single one of us is now straight and with men. This wasn't very long ago, maybe 2008-2010.
We all started 'self harming' too which was just as contagious as the sexual preference switch. It was absolutely all for attention and social media (tumblr, Facebook, and others) made having 'slit wrists' cool so easily half the children in our big massive secondary school went round with light scratches made by sliding a razor across your arm. it wasn't deep and looking back, noone was depressed, just confused and jumping in a band wagon.
Vampire fiction didn't help, lots of books and films about finding your true love by the taste and smell of their blood actually it's quote scary how easily influenced teens and preteens can be. And stupid.

So I echo give support and don't make her dig her heels In by saying her feelings are invalid BUT do keep a close eye incase of secret breast binding, going to GP or mental health services about it. just keep an extra close eye.

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

I’m fairness you made the claim, burden of proof is on you.

l have only been on this forum one year, naievely thinking like my other female forums it would be a celebration of women, nothing further than the truth, l had absolutely no idea how many women hated being female and the constant victim mode mentality, which l strongly disagree with. This unhealthy attitude has surely affected younger generations way of thinking.

@TidyDancer

You may want to read Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier. It goes into some detail about this particular social contagion. It's quite the trend these days which your DD is almost certain to snap out of.

Definitely also recommend this book, it will give you stories of kids & parents who have been through something similar and may offer you some help.

What do you mean by "the constant victim mode mentality", @Moonface123?

You do realise that women are the victims of the majority of sexual crimes, are consistently underpaid for their work, take on most of the caring duties, etc. I could go on, but the list is endless.

had absolutely no idea how many women hated being female and the constant victim mode mentality, which l strongly disagree with

This

Hopefully she snaps out of this stage, brought on by weirdos in the media, not helped by liberal bullshit at school.

@Moonface123

l have only been on this forum one year, naievely thinking like my other female forums it would be a celebration of women, nothing further than the truth, l had absolutely no idea how many women hated being female and the constant victim mode mentality, which l strongly disagree with. This unhealthy attitude has surely affected younger generations way of thinking.

Women it is your fault that you are treated like second class citizens and have been throughout history. It is also your fault for being aware of this. And it is your fault that the younger generation sees this and wishes to try to identify out of it.

there are some people who may truly feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that’s not true for all the young girls currently claiming to be non binary or boys.

It's not true for ANYONE. There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. We ARE our bodies. To suggest otherwise is to align oneself with religious beliefs such as transsubstantiation.

Gender dysphoria is a thing. It is a psychological disorder (like body dysphoria). It needs to be treated psychologically NOT medically or surgically.

*the concept of non-binary is predicated on the idea that most people are binary - which is inaccurate and unfounded. We are just about all non-binary. Thank god. So the concept of non-binary is regressive.

If we're all non binary, then saying you're non binary is no more than accurate? Nothing regressive about accuracy, surely.*

I think you are missing the point. We don't declare everything that is accurate as to do so suggests it does not go without saying. It would be odd to declare ourselves human or to declare that we breath. These things just are. So everyone is non-binary but we create a context when we make out as though that needs saying and in that is a context which is causing untold harm. By declaring oneself non-binary you are suggesting that there are people who are binary - that is the regressive part.

@Moonface123

l have only been on this forum one year, naievely thinking like my other female forums it would be a celebration of women, nothing further than the truth, l had absolutely no idea how many women hated being female and the constant victim mode mentality, which l strongly disagree with. This unhealthy attitude has surely affected younger generations way of thinking.

I have no idea what you mean.

@EeeICouldRipATissue - can you explain, seeing as you agree?

@Moonface123

l have only been on this forum one year, naievely thinking like my other female forums it would be a celebration of women, nothing further than the truth, l had absolutely no idea how many women hated being female and the constant victim mode mentality, which l strongly disagree with. This unhealthy attitude has surely affected younger generations way of thinking.

You have also misunderstood. Most women hate the violence and discrimination directed at women and often accepted by society. That is very different from hating being female. Your idea of 'celebration of being female' seems a bit naïve as other than our biology (which can be wonderful but also hard work) there is nothing that binds us other than aforementioned violence and discrimination. Which bit of our biology, the discrimination or the violence did you think would be celebrated? I don't think refusing to hide said violence and discrimination is unhealthy. The opposite in fact. One of my concerns about trans ideology is that it does work to hide those fact and I don't believe they should be hidden even if it means some men don't get to have the world exactly as they like it.

@CMZ2018

Hopefully she snaps out of this stage, brought on by weirdos in the media, not helped by liberal bullshit at school.

100% this.