Pre-teen daughter suddenly identifying as 'non binary'.

[PatButchersEarring]

Such a first world problem, particularly in light of recent world events, but our pre-teen (12 year old) daughter has recently decided that she's non binary, has asked us to call her by a different name and refer to her as they/them.

It is all out of the blue. Up until 1 year or so ago, she was 'tom boy' ish, but generally happy in her own skin. Before this, quite typically 'girly', in the way little girls often are. I would add though, we are aware of gender stereotyping and have always actively sought to make her aware that gender stereotypes are no more than just that.

Now, we have discovered she is self harming and wants to be known by a different (non gendered) name with neutral pronouns etc.

Several of her same age friends are also identifying as the opposite gender from their biological sex. One of her female friends is declaring herself to be a 'gay male' i.e. her biologically female friend identifies as a boy and is attracted to boys. 'He' has already had several (non official) name changes.

Parents of aforementioned children seem to be in support of this.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but my stance is that if you're not comfortable with your 'gender' then it's the perceived gender roles which need to be changed, not the person's identity.

I don't know what to do for the best. Why oh why is this even an issue for a child who has not even gone through puberty?

I really hope this is just a phase. Is it a fashion? The new rebellion? 2022's equivalent of smoking behind the bike sheds?

Anyone else been through this? We have sought counselling for her BTW, specifically in light of the self harm.

Sorry- not really an AIBU.

Some schools bear a huge responsibility for much of this. Too many of them have failed to exercise due diligence and allowed adult lobby groups to peddle their beliefs about changing sex to even the youngest of children with little thought about how children interpret complex adult issues. They've sometimes pushed simplistic mantras like born in the wrong body, self ID etc, looking for Stonewall approval rather than thoughtfully working out what the school's actual role should be with these contested beliefs and what is in the best interests of children - not Stonewall.

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

So no source….

Nobody has ever produced anything that says "misgendering" causes risk of suicide

I don't think it's a direct thing, it's about the child feeling invalidated, belittled, dismissed etc. Those are the feelings that can increase a risk in suicide, and those feelings can be caused by parent's actions and words. It might not be misgendering that makes a child feel those feelings, there are many other ways to make a child feel that way, but it also could be. It's likely not just the misgendering anyway, but the fact that the misgendering plays into a bigger picture of the child feeling unaccepted, misunderstood, rejected by their parents etc.

Some of these responses are ridiculous, what will ridiculing your child do apart from know they can't come to you in future for support, and you'll just push them further and further away!

Indeed. I was 12 the first time I told my mum I wanted to go by a stereotypically male name and he/him pronouns. I am in my early 20s so this would have been around 2012.

She dismissed me, ridiculed me, would try and debate me about it, she was sarcastic, she made it obvious she didn't respect me, and she refused to call me by male pronouns.

The battle with her went on for years. Even when I became an adult and changed my name, she wouldn't even respect the legal change.

Why should I put myself into a painful situation with her when she cannot just give me some basic respect? I don't care what she thinks in her head or online or with other people, but she can't afford me some dignity by not, for example, still posting pictures on her social media that include me with tags like "me and my daughter", when she knows I will see it, it's like she's purposefully tormenting me.

Well, I was her only child and now she's lost me. I have disowned her. Her loss. She still sends me birthday cards with my old name on it, the horrible fucker. They go straight in the bin.

@mamabye

I have dealt with a similar issue OP.

We sought counseling for mainly anxiety. I was a bit worried about this because I was afraid of the psychologist taking an affirmation approach but we did attempt to find someone unlikely to do that.

We didn't really entertain the requests for name changes/pronoun changes or the request for a binder. For a while it was hugely contentious. But we were very clear that it was not possible to change sex; that it was important to try and make peace with our own body and that it is very normal to feel uncomfortable with it and changing social roles during puberty; that binders were not healthy physically or a healthy way to deal with our bodies; that name changing was something that could be done legally in adulthood if desired but not sooner; and that things like pronouns didn't really change who you are or how people think about you, but they were an imposition on others.

Part of my reasoning on this is that I think it is normal and probably necessary for teens to struggle with who they are and also their physicality - identity struggles are normal and so are feelings of disassociation and disembodiment. Part of coming to terms with that involves integrating the things we are born with - our sex, our family, our physical body, and coming to inhabit these facets of reality even if sometimes they aren't what we would choose. Pulling out those things as if they are things we choose will actually impede kid's ability to build a solid sense of self, it becomes like trying to keep water in a sieve.

My child seems to have largely come out of the other side of this now though it was intense for a while. One other element was somewhat reducing her contact with people pushing it, both IRL and online.

@Momicrone

Lots of horse riding stables on inner city council estates

Who says that the OP's family live on an inner city council estate?

It would be rather unusual, "non-binary" identities are a middle-class preoccupation. Rather a first world problem.

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

You made the claim, it's on you to provide the evidence to back it up.

It would be rather unusual, "non-binary" identities are a middle-class preoccupation. Rather a first world problem.

"Luxury belief" is an apt description.

@UnevenBooks

Nobody has ever produced anything that says "misgendering" causes risk of suicide

I don't think it's a direct thing, it's about the child feeling invalidated, belittled, dismissed etc. Those are the feelings that can increase a risk in suicide, and those feelings can be caused by parent's actions and words. It might not be misgendering that makes a child feel those feelings, there are many other ways to make a child feel that way, but it also could be. It's likely not just the misgendering anyway, but the fact that the misgendering plays into a bigger picture of the child feeling unaccepted, misunderstood, rejected by their parents etc.

Saying that "X makes people more likely to commit suicide" legitimises suicide as an option. Therefore it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is why the Samaritans advise against it.

There are Youtube videos with detransitioners. All saying it was far too easy to access hormones and irreversible damage.

Loads of girls in my kids various friends groups are saying they are either on binary or trans.
They tend to be quite similar types - social justice types with nice families.

Yes, this seems to be a big thing with girls at the moment and agree it’s not benign. Sure, there are some people who may truly feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that’s not true for all the young girls currently claiming to be non binary or boys. My dd went through this when she was 12. It was very much driven by not liking how her body was changing, being a bit unhappy and anxious, and peers who were claiming similar. I went along with some of it but drew the line at breast binders etc. Three years later and she has fully embraced being a woman.

@Goatsaregreat

Some schools bear a huge responsibility for much of this. Too many of them have failed to exercise due diligence and allowed adult lobby groups to peddle their beliefs about changing sex to even the youngest of children with little thought about how children interpret complex adult issues. They've sometimes pushed simplistic mantras like born in the wrong body, self ID etc, looking for Stonewall approval rather than thoughtfully working out what the school's actual role should be with these contested beliefs and what is in the best interests of children - not Stonewall.

When the lawsuits hit who will be held accountable? Absolute scandal.

Saying that "X makes people more likely to commit suicide" legitimises suicide as an option.

Fair enough. It certainly can increase feelings of alienation and rejection though.

@Echobelly

I think for these kids it's not really as big a deal as adults are making it or that they find it especially 'special' now. It's more like being a goth or a mosher or whatever and liking the 'aesthetic' than anything worth having a panic about for the vast majority.

With our 13.5 year old I am supporting them but also keeping an open dialogue about things like my opinion is that you don't like gender stereotypes I think it might be stronger to identify as your birth sex but be clear you can express yourself how you want, that they don't really have to worry yet about their gender or sexuality and there's plenty of time to work it out and so on. At the moment they still respect my opinion and seem to be taking that board; they know DH and I have trans friends and family so none of this is coming from transphobia/homophobia.

I think it just wouldn't achieve anything helpful to try to 'put them off' with cautionary tales, or pooh-poohing their feelings. That would just drive a wedge between us and potential steer them further down a rabbit hole of more unhelpful stuff from their peers and not sharing anything with us about it. They're happy with their body, they have been using a different name at school with friends for some time, but I note they are not pushing that at home or with teachers so I think they know on some level they're not going all the way into it. I follow them on insta and tiktok (their accounts aren't totally public) so I have an overview of who they are in touch with but not seen anything to concern me.

I wasn't pressured into taking hormones, puberty blockers or amputating body parts when I was a goth.

How does not saying "X can increase the risk of suicide" work with things like mental health problems though?

It's a known fact that people with my disorder have an "increased risk of suicide" due to it, would that mean health professionals are legitimising it?

Or is it different when referring to trends within mental health. I'm not sure.

@UnevenBooks

How does not saying "X can increase the risk of suicide" work with things like mental health problems though?

It's a known fact that people with my disorder have an "increased risk of suicide" due to it, would that mean health professionals are legitimising it?

Or is it different when referring to trends within mental health. I'm not sure.

I think you are right, discussing risk factors in medical settings is different.

Two things to keep in mind - one is that mental health professionals know that suicide has a significant social contagion element. It has changed how they manage things like suicides in schools, or recommendations for reporting in the news. Going around blasting how not being affirmed means you will be suicidal is not how that kind of thing is normally dealt with. With anorexics, for example.

And that is the other thing to keep in mind. The proper response to suicidal ideation is some kind of medical attention to deal with that, like talk therapy. You would never respond to a girl cutting herself or starving herself and saying she wanted to kill herself by reinforcing the idea that unless she was indulged in her unhealthy thoughts she would probably do so. You would try and work on those dangerous thought patters and discover their origins and find better coping mechanisms.

I would explain that there are men and women in the world. There are two separate genders and in English the words she/her are used if you are female and he/ his if you are male. They /them is not grammatically correct and there is no such thing as being neither male or female.

She doesn't need to wear particular clothing or dress in a particular way according to a stereotype.

Then explain that you understand they are struggling and help them to access lots of support for her mental health and being comfortable with who she is.

singular they is not grammatically correct

Well, it's been used in everyday English from the middle ages, although debated ever since. I've never met anyone who cared or simply couldn't grasp who someone was referring to.

@LittleWhingingWoman - neither are the vast, vast majority of kids engaged in this feeling that.

I'm not going to say there aren't risks, and that one shouldn't keep talking and avoiding kids going down 'rabbit holes' but to act as though every single one is going to become medicalised is nonsense. I know of dozens of 'trans' teens, none of who are are angling for hormones or surgery and I'm pretty sure they'll all desist before it ever goes that way, or else carry on identifying as non-binary but not having interventions.

I make it clear to mine to use their critical faculties and that just because they may see lots of positive stories of outcomes of intervention for some on social media, that doesn't mean it might be the answer for their own problems.

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

Yeah I looked, couldn't find anything.

It doesn't seem like that to me. The non binary girls are not noticeably the unfeminine ones and you have to stop using pronouns based on perceived gender. To do it reliably, I've found I have to think about gender differently, not automatically.

That's so utterly depressing. That you can't see that you are reinforcing gender stereotypes with language like "the unfeminine ones"

The illogic is easily seen when you try to explain "pronouns based on perceived gender" and having to concentrate on 'otherwise/magical thinking' to be able to talk to people without committing the crime of misgendering.

Think that through. You avoid normal "hello's" because you think carefully to avoid summink summink gender...

All of which is why gender ideology is dangerous to developing minds and bodies and is so utterly illogical!

Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it

Your problem there is many fold.

1. The data cannot be found as it is a lie.

1. There are any number of threads here, including Break it Down for Me, with the debunked data carefully examined.

1. Most of the regular FWR posters have read the original study that made the claim, the analysis that debunked it and the Stonewall et Al regurgitation if it - and yes, they are fully aware that they are spreading disinformation. They just don't care to change it.

1. The ignorance on this is your own. Maybe do something about that before trying to call me across as intelligent here. Because many posters have a lot more knowledge than you do... if this post is anything to go by.

That you can't see that you are reinforcing gender stereotypes with language like "the unfeminine ones"

Are all women feminine? No. Are you men masculine? No. Not all women confirm to the feminine gender stereotype. You can still be a woman and be unfeminine so I'm not sure how simply using "unfeminine" reinforces anything.