Pre-teen daughter suddenly identifying as 'non binary'.

[PatButchersEarring]

Such a first world problem, particularly in light of recent world events, but our pre-teen (12 year old) daughter has recently decided that she's non binary, has asked us to call her by a different name and refer to her as they/them.

It is all out of the blue. Up until 1 year or so ago, she was 'tom boy' ish, but generally happy in her own skin. Before this, quite typically 'girly', in the way little girls often are. I would add though, we are aware of gender stereotyping and have always actively sought to make her aware that gender stereotypes are no more than just that.

Now, we have discovered she is self harming and wants to be known by a different (non gendered) name with neutral pronouns etc.

Several of her same age friends are also identifying as the opposite gender from their biological sex. One of her female friends is declaring herself to be a 'gay male' i.e. her biologically female friend identifies as a boy and is attracted to boys. 'He' has already had several (non official) name changes.

Parents of aforementioned children seem to be in support of this.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but my stance is that if you're not comfortable with your 'gender' then it's the perceived gender roles which need to be changed, not the person's identity.

I don't know what to do for the best. Why oh why is this even an issue for a child who has not even gone through puberty?

I really hope this is just a phase. Is it a fashion? The new rebellion? 2022's equivalent of smoking behind the bike sheds?

Anyone else been through this? We have sought counselling for her BTW, specifically in light of the self harm.

Sorry- not really an AIBU.

Conform not confirm

Really? That's odd.

You clearly understood what I meant but stepped off at right angles at some point.

The while concept of 'feminine / masculine' is the issue.

Using the term 'unfeminine' suggests a judgement made using the parameters of that social construct. Expresses suprise that 'even the pretty girls' do this!

It's using stereotypes and judging.

Non-binary leads to this pile of utter hogwash: metro.co.uk/2022/02/25/as-a-nonbinary-person-i-know-its-not-just-women-who-get-endometriosis-16148608/

The while concept of 'feminine / masculine' is the issue.

Anybody can be feminine or masculine, and I don't see it as judging someone negatively to describe them as such. I'm not a feminine woman, I am unfeminine and lean more masculine. That's not a negative judgement, it doesn't reinforce that women should be feminine either.

Expresses suprise that 'even the pretty girls' do this!

You're the one suggesting that "feminine" means pretty and unfeminine excludes pretty.

Using the term 'unfeminine' suggests a judgement made using the parameters of that social construct

People have been saying that the girls who are identifying as NB are doing so because they associate the feminine gender roles stereotype with being a girl, so they think that because they aren't feminine they must not be a woman.

Someone said but not all NB people are unfeminine, so why are they calling themselves NB? It was other people suggesting that NB girls think they are NB because they wrongly think feminine = woman. The poster who used "unfeminine" was using it to show that that assumption is not correct for all these non-binary females.

@Clymene That article is disturbing. The bit that I really struggled with was this... "Even some trans women get monthly period cramps after being on hormone replacement therapy (HRT)." Cramps in WHAT?!? They don't have a uterus!!

Sorry I'll pipe down now.

Sorry I'll pipe down now.

Don’t. This ridiculousness needs highlighting.

There was a trans woman on tiktok claiming to have ‘monthlies’ and ‘time of the month’. Lots of people were sympathising with him. I was blocked for questioning. 🙄

[quote OrlandointheWilderness]@Clymene That article is disturbing. The bit that I really struggled with was this... "Even some trans women get monthly period cramps after being on hormone replacement therapy (HRT)." Cramps in WHAT?!? They don't have a uterus!!

Sorry I'll pipe down now.[/quote]
Well exactly. It's utter rubbish. Men who take female hormones don't get any period related effects because they don't have female anatomy.

The fact that this woman believes they do shows quite how deluded she is. And she has a STEM degree.

I'm sorry she is experiencing so much pain but no one is staring at her in the endometriosis clinic wondering why she's there.

We're in a world of fantasy biology now as far as I can see

My daughter is at the moment wrestling with who they feel comfortable being. I said to her yesterday that I think I would struggle if she decided that she did not want to be female because that's not something I can relate to because how I feel about my own gender identity (proud to be female and a staunch feminist) BUT I have always raised her to never reduce herself for the benefit of others delicate feelings and I am included in that. I am proud of and love my daughter and I would rather have to adjust than see her living uncomfortably. I figure as long as she is at peace with herself then everything else will fall into place eventually. I would hate for her to feel she would have to hide any part of herself from me - whether its a phase or whether it's for keeps.

@sundaydayisnotmyfundayday

My daughter is at the moment wrestling with who they feel comfortable being. I said to her yesterday that I think I would struggle if she decided that she did not want to be female because that's not something I can relate to because how I feel about my own gender identity (proud to be female and a staunch feminist) BUT I have always raised her to never reduce herself for the benefit of others delicate feelings and I am included in that. I am proud of and love my daughter and I would rather have to adjust than see her living uncomfortably. I figure as long as she is at peace with herself then everything else will fall into place eventually. I would hate for her to feel she would have to hide any part of herself from me - whether its a phase or whether it's for keeps.

Being female is “for keeps”. It isn’t possible to change your sex. Everything else is stereotyping, something I thought we had moved beyond decades ago.

I know of dozens of 'trans' teens

I don't know a single one, which rather confirms my belief that it's a social contagion in particular schools.

@Ereshkigalangcleg - oh, absolutely it is, no argument there. We're full on North London middle class land here and that has a lot to do with it, I'm sure. As it happens, no groups have come in to either kids' school to talk about gender identity - and it kicked off before teen was on any social media - it's totally a social thing I see now as a time of struggle with certain ideas but u think it will turn out right in the end. I frankly think mostly our kids will be off to uni laughing about 'that time when everyone was non-binary'. Or maybe lots of people will identify as NB and it just won't be a big deal. I do think many AFAB people will find, however, they face more discrimination and harassment related to their birth sex than their non-genderedness...

@SirVixofVixHall of course it is. The point is I am 99% sure its a phase etc but I want my daughter to know I have her back generally in life. I thought I had made that pretty clear but ok

[quote Echobelly]@Ereshkigalangcleg - oh, absolutely it is, no argument there. We're full on North London middle class land here and that has a lot to do with it, I'm sure. As it happens, no groups have come in to either kids' school to talk about gender identity - and it kicked off before teen was on any social media - it's totally a social thing I see now as a time of struggle with certain ideas but u think it will turn out right in the end. I frankly think mostly our kids will be off to uni laughing about 'that time when everyone was non-binary'. Or maybe lots of people will identify as NB and it just won't be a big deal. I do think many AFAB people will find, however, they face more discrimination and harassment related to their birth sex than their non-genderedness...[/quote]
Absolutely!

Do you think she would be receptive to a conversation about what she thinks all of this means?

What does she think a boy is and what does she think a girl is? What does she think a man is and what does she think a woman is? Why does she think she is neither?

What is the difference between being non binary and simply not conforming to gender stereotypes?

It might be a phase, it might not. If you refuse to acknowledge it or just say it's a load of rubbish or stop her internet access she will see you as the bad guy and be complaining to her friends that her mum is transphobic.

So in the guise of being supportive, talk to her lots, ask her lots of questions, stay calm, and see if she starts to work out for herself that it's all a load of rubbish.

@SnowFlo

The while concept of 'feminine / masculine' is the issue.

Anybody can be feminine or masculine, and I don't see it as judging someone negatively to describe them as such. I'm not a feminine woman, I am unfeminine and lean more masculine. That's not a negative judgement, it doesn't reinforce that women should be feminine either.

Expresses suprise that 'even the pretty girls' do this!

You're the one suggesting that "feminine" means pretty and unfeminine excludes pretty.

My apologies. I can't, for the life of me, untangle that.

Put as simply as I can: the very term feminine is loaded with all sorts of societal expectations. As is the term masculine. I find this expectations to be outdated and dangerous, see toxic masculinity as an example.

So ANY reference to being feminine is abhorrent.

I wouldn't describe anyone using those terms.

I would go along with whatever is external (name, clothes etc) but absolutely not allow any kind of medical treatment or transgender counselling.

In the 1970s a study was done on gender-nonconforming children. By adulthood none identified as trans, or even confused about their gender.

Today? Every single child who begins any kind of treatment for transgender still identifies as trans by the time they are 18, even though some detransition later. Hormone treatment (puberty blockers) have huge longterm health implications: heart disease, diabetes, infertility etc. She cannot give informed consent at this age and you need to prevent her harning herself in this way.

Talk to her about how it’s normal to feel weird in your body at her age and as things continue to change. Explain that she needs to put off any life-changing decisions until her body has settled into adulthood. Don’t make a big deal of it but do try to work out if there may be other issues behind the self harming.

Monitor and limit internet use as much as you possibly can.

Teen has expressed to me that they've 'never felt they have a gender' - and I have told them that's totally normal, that no one 'feels' they are a gender. I never felt 'female', I always knew I didn't fit a feminine stereotype and I didn't identify with it, but at the and time I didn't feel any disjunct about my sex but maybe the focus at the moment is causing young people to overthink these things amid normal adolescent feelings.

I'm not going to ridicule them, play pedantic games about grammar or flash scare stories of extremes at them. I'm just leaving doors open and encouraging them to look critically at things around sex and gender .

One advantage of us just going along with the self-ID for our DD is that counselling didn't really come into play, so we had no issues with confirmation or pathways or any indication that drugs or surgery might even be an option.
Also there was less for her to backtrack from (if you see what I mean - we just hoped for a climbdown, and therefore wanted to make it as easy as possible for her - once kids have declared themselves as "special" in some way, it can be hard for them to retreat from that)
The difficulty you may have is that your DD needs counselling anyway re the self-harm, so you need to be careful about choosing a counsellor who will focus on the self-harm rather than the gender ID

I do think many AFAB people will find, however, they face more discrimination and harassment related to their birth sex than their non-genderedness...

Yes! Funny that.

@moreshitandnofuckingredemption - that's kind of what I'm aiming at. They've mentioned wondering if they'd feel silly if they rethought their identity and I've said it's fine and they have plenty of time to work this stuff out. My intention is not to get them to desist from being trans per se, but to keep away from potential harmful behaviours that could arise from it, the same way one might monitor a kid who's on a health kick, which should be a good thing,ike exploring one's identity, but could become negative if they fall into eating or exercising disorders.

I will be interested to see what happens with a lot of these queer kids when they hit later teens and really start feeling sexual attraction. I suspect quite a lot will step back when they realise that non binary or trans identities are making things unnecessarily complicated for them, whether they are gay or straight, and step back from it. Or, as I said, maybe these things just won't be a big deal for anyone.

@user842

Urghhh, these comments. Support your kid, don’t make a big deal of the non-binary thing, she is just figuring out who she is, the same as all teens have done forever.

The more you make a thing of it the more it will become a big issue. I’d focus on the self harming and getting her help for that.

I agree with this. My dd is going through a phase of wanting to demonstrate how different she is to me. We have lots of spirited discussions about random topics where I express an opinion and she rolls her eyes and tells me that I couldn’t possibly be right because of my privilege etc. But if she was to come home and say anything like this I wouldn’t argue or discuss, I would just support her.

The self-harm should be your only focus here and she needs love and help. Whatever your opinion on the non-binary, just tell her that you love her and will always be there for her. She may grow out of it or she may not, but she doesn’t need to make any decisions right now until her mental health is better. Whatever you do, don’t ridicule the concept or her feelings as others have suggested. Her opinion is as valid as yours and you will only push her away.

there are some people who may truly feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that’s not true for all the young girls currently claiming to be non binary or boys.

It's not true for ANYONE. There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. We ARE our bodies. To suggest otherwise is to align oneself with religious beliefs such as transsubstantiation.

There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. We ARE our bodies.

This.