Pre-teen daughter suddenly identifying as 'non binary'.

[PatButchersEarring]

Such a first world problem, particularly in light of recent world events, but our pre-teen (12 year old) daughter has recently decided that she's non binary, has asked us to call her by a different name and refer to her as they/them.

It is all out of the blue. Up until 1 year or so ago, she was 'tom boy' ish, but generally happy in her own skin. Before this, quite typically 'girly', in the way little girls often are. I would add though, we are aware of gender stereotyping and have always actively sought to make her aware that gender stereotypes are no more than just that.

Now, we have discovered she is self harming and wants to be known by a different (non gendered) name with neutral pronouns etc.

Several of her same age friends are also identifying as the opposite gender from their biological sex. One of her female friends is declaring herself to be a 'gay male' i.e. her biologically female friend identifies as a boy and is attracted to boys. 'He' has already had several (non official) name changes.

Parents of aforementioned children seem to be in support of this.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but my stance is that if you're not comfortable with your 'gender' then it's the perceived gender roles which need to be changed, not the person's identity.

I don't know what to do for the best. Why oh why is this even an issue for a child who has not even gone through puberty?

I really hope this is just a phase. Is it a fashion? The new rebellion? 2022's equivalent of smoking behind the bike sheds?

Anyone else been through this? We have sought counselling for her BTW, specifically in light of the self harm.

Sorry- not really an AIBU.

It is such a worry and I feel for you OP. I honestly think there is an epidemic with regard to the non-binary/gender issues and it is a phase that they will grow out of - but is fulled by the internet/social media and supported by schools who seem to have staff with their own agenda intent on stopping parents trying to halt this epidemic

Doona
How is it being undermining the gender binary by saying that if you don’t feel feminine you must not be a woman or even must be a man? It’s completely reinforcing it.

@Hollyhead

Tell her everyone is non binary because gender is a social construct and to stop thinking she’s so special.

I agree with this.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Doona How is it being undermining the gender binary by saying that if you don’t feel feminine you must not be a woman or even must be a man? It’s completely reinforcing it.

It doesn't seem like that to me. The non binary girls are not noticeably the unfeminine ones and you have to stop using pronouns based on perceived gender. To do it reliably, I've found I have to think about gender differently, not automatically.

Don't make a deal about it.

The more my parents told me they were against something, the more I would rebel and go against them just for the sake of doing something that's frustrating/annoying them. A big "well fuck you idc what you think, mum", you're stuck in the past" type of thing.

So, if my mum refused to use "they" pronouns for me, as an example, the more I would use "them" for everyone I spoke about in front of her, for example. "Oh, I'm going out with Ellie after school, they have money for the cinema. I'll say hi to them for you".

I live on the continent and work in schools, primary and secondary. Strangely enough there are no children here claiming to be non binary, it's literally unheard of, both with adults and children alike. I think I read about one case on the news a few years back of a trans teen but basically here it's like it was back in the late 90's.
What can I say, people are brainwashing your children, it's really sad when you to think about it. Just tell her there's no such thing and check her online activity

moreshitandnofuckingredemption

Love this.

Please listen to the posters who have been through it.

It may sound contradicting but the more you support her the easier the phase will pass.
I remember thinking I was a witch! - my family just went along with it.

The only issue I would have is the name. I would encourage that they use a shortened version of their own name or as close as possible so it’s easier to revert back - don’t tell them this bit though just say so people don’t get confused when she’s filling out forms etc.

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

Health issues are horrific for female bodies who abuse testosterone. They are storing up such huge problems for themselves. These won't be apparent for many years but it's desperately sad.

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

That’s a very long-winded way of saying “I can’t post sources because they don’t exist”.

Campervan, the op's kid is not on testosterone

@Ballcactus

I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

The comments on this post are outrageous

Nobody has ever produced anything that says "misgendering" causes risk of suicide. Hence looking for it will inevitably be pointless. If you know otherwise it's up to you to prove it, otherwise we will keep posting on threads like this to show up your bollocks for what it is.

I hope we are able to reassure parents, unlike scaremongers like you.

*Doona
How is it being undermining the gender binary by saying that if you don’t feel feminine you must not be a woman or even must be a man? It’s completely reinforcing it.

It doesn't seem like that to me. The non binary girls are not noticeably the unfeminine ones*

Feeling and being perceived by others are not the same thing. The fact that some girls who feel the need to pronounce themselves non-binary does not negate the fact that the concept of non-binary is predicated on the idea that most people are binary - which is inaccurate and unfounded. We are just about all non-binary. Thank god. So the concept of non-binary is regressive.

OP it is not respectful to entrench a damaging and outdated social idea about gender norms despite what some posters have said.

What struck me was that you talk about your daughter as pre-pubescent. At 12 she is obviously going through puberty late. Not medically worrying in any way I don't think but I wonder how that makes her feel about her body and whether this is an expression of distress related to that? Many girls start their periods at 11 or 12 so to be called pre-pubescent makes me think that she might feel very different to others and might not know how to handle distress related to that. The distress is very real but there is also a real danger that the social contagion gives a 'solution' which is a pack of cars and ultimately causes its own serious problems.

Although this article is about younger children OP, here's a clinical psychologist talking compassionately about the problems we set up for children if we pretend they're not the sex they actually are. They point out the awful unintended consequences for girls when they reach puberty if they (and those around them) deny the reality of their sexed bodies.

www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Hopefully it gives some useful pointers about how to support your daughter as she navigates this.

my computer ate a sentence. should say ' The fact that some girls who feel the need to pronounce themselves non-binary are judged by you to be feminine does not negate the fact that the concept of non-binary is predicated on the idea that most people are binary - which is inaccurate and unfounded'.

Ballcactus
I love it when Mumsnetters reply with this. Go and find it yourself if you so desperately want to debunk it.

No Ballcactus, you’re the one who confidently stated;

The comments on this post are outrageous, the stats around misgendering, lack of support & suicide is awful

If you have a source those statistics, it would be more usual to wish to share them.

I had this with my daughter, I was concerned at first and decided to just support her. She cut her hair short and wore some very hideous clothes for a while. I think for some children it is a stage ( I remember wanting to be a goth ) and for some it may be something that they will want to pursue as an adult.

However, I think generally it is a passing trend at the moment and my daughter has literally spent the last 15 minutes discussing her make up purchases and is completely over it.

Take a deep breath and get ready for the teenage years, there are many phases! She just asked for a juicy couture tracksuit! That is a real turn around 🙄

its only a fad...its fast fashion....all be forgotten soon....move on and just ignore it.

No way would I call my child by another name for this reason or use they/them. My kids can present to the world however they like but pronouns should be sex based and my son will always be a boy/man and my daughter will always be a girl/ woman. Thankfully they don’t buy into this stuff. If they got brainwashed by friends at school, I’d remove them from school. I’ve seen too much of it, it’s seems to be like a contagious disease wrecking lives and denying biology at the moment. It’s only ever about stereotypes and feeling like the opposite sex? What on earth does it feel like to be a girl or a boy? Get your child away from the influence, whoever or whatever that is. Once this path is started on, it’s hard to stop.

the concept of non-binary is predicated on the idea that most people are binary - which is inaccurate and unfounded. We are just about all non-binary. Thank god. So the concept of non-binary is regressive.

If we're all non binary, then saying you're non binary is no more than accurate? Nothing regressive about accuracy, surely.

I think for these kids it's not really as big a deal as adults are making it or that they find it especially 'special' now. It's more like being a goth or a mosher or whatever and liking the 'aesthetic' than anything worth having a panic about for the vast majority.

With our 13.5 year old I am supporting them but also keeping an open dialogue about things like my opinion is that you don't like gender stereotypes I think it might be stronger to identify as your birth sex but be clear you can express yourself how you want, that they don't really have to worry yet about their gender or sexuality and there's plenty of time to work it out and so on. At the moment they still respect my opinion and seem to be taking that board; they know DH and I have trans friends and family so none of this is coming from transphobia/homophobia.

I think it just wouldn't achieve anything helpful to try to 'put them off' with cautionary tales, or pooh-poohing their feelings. That would just drive a wedge between us and potential steer them further down a rabbit hole of more unhelpful stuff from their peers and not sharing anything with us about it. They're happy with their body, they have been using a different name at school with friends for some time, but I note they are not pushing that at home or with teachers so I think they know on some level they're not going all the way into it. I follow them on insta and tiktok (their accounts aren't totally public) so I have an overview of who they are in touch with but not seen anything to concern me.

If go along with it tbh. If she is non binary then so be it, if she is experimenting then no harm done
My 13 year old dramatically announced she is a lesbian the other day. I was like oh ok, and she looked quite disappointed that it wasn’t a bigger deal than it was. I just told her I don’t care who she’s with as long as it’s a healthy relationship. Lots of her friends are coming out as lgbt so I know it’s a bit of a trend in her year group. Obviously if she is a lesbian I wouldn’t care but I’m not convinced it’s not a peer thing

Grapewrath

Trans ideology is nothing like being lesbian/gay. The T should not be tagged onto LGB, that’s the issue and how they’ve managed to make people be scared of speaking out for fear of being called transphobic....as then you must be homophobic too. It’s bullshit. Trans ideology is homophobic and people are being manipulated.!

Try to keep your cool and talk to your DD. You can find out a lot about what she's thinking from having broader conversations about the other girls in her friendship group, leaving your DD out of it. This in turn will give you clues as to where to focus your attention. I've found that when DC of this age 'get into' something, they invariably develop rampant mentionitis and love nothing more than to discuss their new 'thing' at any given opportunity, as long as you give them your undivided attention. Talking about how gender identities are playing out in other girls' lives may give your DD an opportunity to air her thoughts to you which may be too close to the bone if the conversation is focused on her.
So many girls at DD1's (11) school are messing around with gendery labels, and these change frequently in many cases. It's a one-upmanship of edginess. DD wins hands down at edgy by having declared herself a female lesbian, pronouns consistent with biological sex because duh. That is so out there, borderline dangerous, that her non-binary, queer, gender fluid, trans peer group are in complete awe
The self-harming is consistent with some of what DD has explained to me about the thinking of some of the girls she knows: you've got to be "valid". This seems to mean that you've got to be seen to be 100% committed to whatever it is you've 'come out' as, and there are lots of ways to signal ones validness. Agonising over and performatively hating your sexed body is one way. But DD says that if someone decides to try another gender related label after a while, they'll move on to different ways of showing how 'valid' they are, consistent with the expected expression of the new gender identity. DD is thought to be valid as she's considered a bit terfy which is apparently what you can expect from lesbians.
Based on what DD has told me, I have made several safeguarding referrals to the school's DSL. Schools need to wake the hell up.
DD only started secondary school in September.
You couldn't make this stuff up.