Men should have the right to not want a baby

[user57639206]

NC as I've been shot down a few times in real life for having this opinion.

I find it bizarre that women can decide that they don't want a baby and opt for a termination (just to clarify, I completely agree with this. It's her right to choice) but when a man decides now isn't the right time, right partner or whatever the reason - he's labelled a arsehole, good for nothing or irresponsible.

Surely if a woman has the right to say "no, not right now/not for me" a man should have the same right? Without being labelled or judged!

I've seen it a few times in real life, be it from a one night stand or a not so serious relationship. The woman wants to keep the baby, the man says he doesn't (but doesn't suggest an abortion), and he's thrown under the bus.

I know there is a big difference in some sense because obviously, the woman goes through all the physical changes/trauma of having a baby - but when are men then taken to court for CA or have knives shoved in their backs for not wanting a baby?

AIBU?

It might not be "fair" but it's biology so tough shit

@RedCandyApple

Unpopular opinion op but I agree with you and I think pp are missing the point op is not saying the woman should abort she’s saying the man shouldn’t have to step up and play dad to a child he didn’t want or pay maintenance for them.

I don’t claim child maintenance from my ex as he decided he wanted nothing to do with our children, I’m not going to force someone who wants nothing to do with our children to pay for them.

The problem with this is that in the end the innocent child suffers. Not always of course, but often the woman needs the financial support for the baby or even of they dont need it the extra money from the dad improves the childs life and allows for some luxuries that they would go without otherwise.

Every time a man ejaculates inside a vagina he has the potential to create a life. Maybe they should be careful with their sperm.

@FairyCakeWings

Yanbu. There should be some thing that men can go to court for to absolve themselves of any responsibility for a pregnancy as long as they do it within the right timeframe. But it has to be a permanent choice so these men don’t get to change their minds and decide they want the child back later in life.

We should be striving for equality in rights as much as we can.

This is what I would agree with. It needs to be permanent and they can’t change their mind at any point.

Men are considered good fathers if they pay their ex the minimum child support (the CSA calculated amount) and have their DC round for 5 nights a month. I really don’t think that we, as a society, set the bar high for them.

I know this has been said already, but you don't seem to get it:

you are comparing a woman having an abortion with a man walking away from an actual child, a fully recognised person with needs and rights.

Stop being daft. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to abandon a person they're partly responsible for bringing into the world.

before a baby is born, the primary consideration is the woman's body, which she has rights over. at this point, the baby doesn't have rights of their own.
After baby is born, they have rights which place obligations on both parents - if either walk away at this point, there is a pretty big stigma.

[quote FedUpOfLighteningCrotch]@gwenneh so you’re against abortion and women’s bodily rights?

Contraception work by men, or taken by women have roughly the same success rate. There are cases where women are on contraception, the man have worn a condom for extra protection and that has still failed. What then?

It is never 100% fool proof. We’re talking about basic human rights. Not whether someone deserves to have their rights snatches away based on what they may or may not have put on the end of their todger.[/quote]
I am absolutely, categorically, 100% against abortion. But it is a legal option for those women who want it, whether I agree with it or not.

No rights are being snatched from anyone, least of all the "poor men". The pair engages in the behaviour with a possible outcome, that outcome is then both of their responsibility.

If we're going to insist that women have abortions so the poor blokes can have sex without consequence, then that's hardly this basic human right and bodily autonomy.

My female friends and I have done our fair share of dating over the years. We've all commented on the amount of men who have no interest or desire to use condoms even in casual situations. I don't think the number of poor men having their sperm stolen is that high, its more that many men are reckless as to where they deposit it and then bleat that it isn't fair. Kids living in poverty isn't fair.

@FairyCakeWings

Yanbu. There should be some thing that men can go to court for to absolve themselves of any responsibility for a pregnancy as long as they do it within the right timeframe. But it has to be a permanent choice so these men don’t get to change their minds and decide they want the child back later in life.

We should be striving for equality in rights as much as we can.

The people most damaged by that will be the children (through their mother not getting financial support, for example). They had no part in creating the situation and they now exist, the reason people can’t do what you’re proposing is because it wouldn’t be in the best interests of the children.

I think OP that with the kind of argument you are talkig about, you are right to see that there is a kind of contradiction.

And the commen argument that men have a right to use bc is stupid - if that were so you could use the same argument with regard to women. They too could use bc if they don't want a pregnancy.

However, what I would say op is that the argument that women should be able to have abortions because they may not want a baby is not something that is universally seen as valid, even among people who support abortion legislation. It's not really why abortion was made legal either, or what people would have said for the most part at the time it was made legal.

If we did believe that - that it was wrong to demand that a sexually active adult should never be obliged to support a pregnancy or child if they don't wish to - then it would seem that should be extended to men as well as women.

And if we do think a woman should be able to simply opt out of being a mother, than we should ask why a father should not be able to do so, and justify that logically.

@grey12

Yes of course!!! Men have the right to not want a baby there are condoms to start and reversible vasectomy as well!!!! Perfectly fine! I think there are even contraceptive pills!

This

@3peassuit

Every time a man ejaculates inside a vagina he has the potential to create a life. Maybe they should be careful with their sperm.

You could equally turn this around though, couldn't you?

Men have sex knowing that if a woman gets pregnant they do not gets to decide if that means there is a baby.

Women have sex knowing that if they get pregnant then they will either have to give birth (which has a mortality rate roughly ten times that of jumping out of a plane) or have to terminate (which has a lower mortality rate but it is far from zero). There is no “get out of jail free” option for women once pregnancy exists.

Both men and women do have the option of abstinence though which removes all risk. They can also use contraception (more than one method is generally possible) to massively reduce that risk.

What you are basically advocating for is to allow men to have consequence free sex at the expense of pushing more children into poverty.

Child mortality is much higher in children who live in poverty than children who live in affluence.

So basically are you saying “men should be able to have consequence free sex. It will lead to the deaths of children but I’m ok with that”?

@RedCandyApple
And I was just pointing out that the majority of woman claiming maintenance from the father of their children do not have that option to decide not to claim. Most woman are not as lucky as you to be able to provide fully for their children without claiming benefits. Usually as they either can't work due to childcare or only work part time. And tbh I am not sure why you do not claim as the money is not for you it's for your child's benefit.

There’s these contraceptives called Condoms.

I agree. A man should be allowed to give up his parental rights altogether if not married. But it would need to be done in a formal way like adoption.

I think what your fundamentally saying is correct OP I agree, however I do also appreciate it is more complicated than that.

If a women is able to get pregnant then that means there are 2 people having unprotected sex (excusing the minority where BC fails). In the case of a one night stand, it is both the women and man being irresponsible to create a pregnancy. And whilst irresponsible, if a man doesn’t want to have a child and the women decides to keep it then yes - he should be able to walk away. They both made an irresponsible choice and neither should be forced into doing something they don’t want to do.

Again, in a relationship - if a man doesn’t want a child but is in a relationship with someone that gets pregnant then it would either be a BC fail which I believe the man should step up.
If it is a case of being baby trapped (we can all pretend it doesn’t happen but unfortunately it does) then no the man shouldn’t be forced to be a father.

But the difficulty is proving any of those, so in theory yes a man should have a choice as it takes 2 to procreate, but there is so many grey areas it’s not a simple black or white answer x

@stressincontinence

before a baby is born, the primary consideration is the woman's body, which she has rights over. at this point, the baby doesn't have rights of their own. After baby is born, they have rights which place obligations on both parents - if either walk away at this point, there is a pretty big stigma.

Absolutely.

If ant parent wants to walk aeat after birth they can, but it should be made more final.

Sign away your rights to be a a parent and not turn up x amount of years later, its too easy to walk away and then swoop in years later as super X parent.

I read the OP as meaning 'Men should have the right to not want a baby' at all... presumably without being judged for it and being called a selfish prick. The entirely predictable arguments that have followed about abortion etc seem at odds with the original question, or at least how I read it.
It seems to me that no one who doesn't 'want' a baby should be having one, there are enough unwanted/unloved babies in the world without adding more of them. It seems it's a lot more 'normal' these days for young men and women to decide they don't want children, back when I was younger it was much more expected that 'all women want kids and all men come around eventually'.
Re contraception, I wasn't aware that a male pill existed, if it does actually exist... I always wondered whether the possibility for men to 'choose' for themselves was conveniently 'difficult' since if men were actually offered a pill then the birth rate would drop and the govt would be panicking about it.
Leaving it the way it is/was with the only option being vascectomy keeps men's decision making out of the process, which is probably what the government wants.

A man's rights extend as far as their choice to have sex. Whatever happens after that is 100% down to the woman.

I have two sons and this is what we are teaching them.

Personally I don't think we go far enough to penalise and stigmatise dead beat parents. Abandoning children and not providing for them should be something we as a society will call out and be vocal over, and there should be much more efficient legal processes to force payment.

It’s because you can only decide what happens to your body, not anyone else’s. And the main difference is women carry the babies in their body, which is why we have a right to choose what happens to that body.

Men don’t, because they don’t carry the baby.

If this difference is unfair to you, you’re going to be absolutely fucking raging when you find out about the gender pay gap.

Agree, and assume the men who feel this way are either abstaining from sex or having a vasectomy.

Men and women are not the same. Equality of the sexes is a good principle but there are a few scenarios where it is utterly pointless to try to make men and women equal. This is one of them. Fair doesn’t come into it. Men don’t get a vote over whether a women chooses abortion or to continue a pregnancy. End of. They can walk away. There are some financial consequences but lots of men manage to avoid that too. Social stigma is about attitudes and opinions. You clearly don’t think it’s bad behavior for men to ignore children they didn’t want. Fair enough. I wouldn’t date a man who did this but you do you. Some people agree with you. Some agree with me.