to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

Except, Elizabeth, that my world doesn't fall apart if the cleaner doesn't pitch up. I can do it myself - I just don't particularly want to.

Her world, however, falls apart if she can't get a cleaning job.

And, round here, there are many, many more people wanting to be cleaners than there are jobs.

I don't think cleaning houses is the worst of the low-paid menial jobs by a long way. You can work flexible hours rather than having to clock in and out, it isn't physically dangerous, and you can, if you're reliable, pick and choose who you work for. (I appreciate that people who work for cleaning agencies and clean offices are often less lucky, but I think the subject under discussion here is private house cleaning done by freelance/self-employed cleaners).
Expecting someone to clean up after you because you have a willy and they do not is bullshit, paying someone a fair wage to clean up because you don't like doing it is not unethical, any more than it's unethical to eat in a cafe rather than cook a meal at home.

Anna, all you're doing is underlining my argument that there is an exploitable class that well-off people are able to take advantage of. You're making my point for me.

If your cleaner doesn't turn up does your DH/DP ever get his hands dirty?

the going rate for a cleaner is about 8-10 pound per hour isnt it? I'd be happy with that.

I wonder how many people here would like to go back to the days when rich people and the middle classes had servants living in their home.

my old employee is from South Africa, he and his wife no longer employ a cleaner because they feel that the british working class are just "not grateful enough" and therefore unreliable. They much prefered it in SA where they could employ maids who made sure they did a fantastic job, even if they were sick as they had to feed their families!! I have felt like saying to them, more than once, well, you could always go back!!!!!!!!

I haven't read all the posts here, but it seems that everyone is on different wavelengths. I don't have a cleaner because of the expense. I do work part time, but it would not be worth my while working more hours to pay a cleaner as a cleaner gets paid more than me! Xenia may not realise that some women like me chose to take lower paid jobs as they do not enjoy the "rat race" and want a stress free job they enjoy. I did have a cleaner once, but as I only work part time she was often in the house cleaning while I was at home and it seemed silly to pay someone to do something that I had the time to do. I guess I am lucky that my husband does help on the weekend, although I do believe that I should do a bit more than him as I have made the choice to only work part time, and do have free time during the week when the children are at school.

i think that sums it up really well frankie

my cleaner started up her own cleaning business since she began cleaning for me, and now has a team of cleaners - well done her, i say!

"What about the women (and it usually is women) who've had very few educational and life opportunities to whom some of us middle-class women "outsource" our boring chores."

I disagree with almost every aspect of that comment.

Firstly everyone born later than 1945 and brought up in the UK has had educational opportunities. If some people have had appalling home lives then that is very unfortunate but that is not the norm and it is NOT confined to women.

Secondly, although my DH and I do outsource the cleaning, that is because we both work. It is not some task that somehow belonged to me as a woman that I then outsourced to another woman. It is a household (ie SHARED) task that is outsourced because there simply aren't enough hours in the day when two adults have children to care for and both work full-time plus.

Quattro: no of course it's not only women who have an unfortunate start in life - but in reality the majority of domestic cleaners are women (I only know of one male who cleans in a domestic setting).

I don't understand your comment (genuine question not being snide here!). You disagree that we shouldn't bear in mind that others are less fortunate than ourselves and have fewer choices??

That's the point I was making. I employ a cleaner myself.

Btw my sister fosters. Her latest addition to the family arrived seriously undernourished and had a less than 40% attendance rate at primary school because her mother has alcohol/substance abuse problems. This child may recover from her "unfortunate" start in life and go on to achieve great things, but she may end up having to go back to her "home" or go in to "care". No this is not the norm post 1945 thank God but believe me there are quite a few children who have a less than great start in life. The gap between rich and poor has not got any smaller in the past 10 years.

Sorry for emotive argument but I'm riled by all this "out-sourcing" talk.

Again, I don't believe there is anything wrong in employing a cleaner. I do so myself. Some people enjoy cleaning and are skilled at it. However, many do it because they have very little other choice. That's all I'm saying.

Oh I think I misread your post. You said that women have fewer educational opportunities. It made no sense to me. I realise now that you meant that it is usually women who are cleaners and cleaners who have fewer life opportunities.

I think I was being dim. But the point about ownership of the household tasks is still valid.

Sorry Quattro! Looking back, I think it was my poor grammar that caused the misunderstanding!

Totally agree about shared ownership of household tasks.

Elizabetth: if someone is paid a living wage (at least £7 per hour) and treated with consideration and respect by the person who employs them, why is it 'worse' to work for an individual, doing tasks in that individual's home, than to work for a corporate employer? People do, after all, employ others to cut their hair, attend to their gardens, drive them from place to place. And people who do low-paid menial work that is not in private households (ie cleaning offices for one of the many shady and explotative contract cleaners, flipping burgers or frying chicken in fast-food restaurants, casual labour in the construction industry or shelf-stacking in supermarkets) can suffer from a lack of respect from employers, mistreatment, physical danger, etc.

I've done some god awful jobs that I hated but had to do because I needed the money, I would much rather have been cleaning some nice house.

Madamez I haven't made that argument so I can't argue in favour of it.

The only thing I would say is that I don't suppose corporations expect their lowest paid employees to be grateful for the huge favour they are doing in exploiting employing them.

Well, I would assume you mean the second part of this defintion, rather than the first.

I don't see what is unfair or unjust about paying someone to clean your house.

I agree with Victoriansqualor. I have in the past employed someone to clean my house. I don't see why this is unfair or unjust. I pay them a good wage and the conditions are pretty favourable - my cleaner works a set number of hours per week, but she does them when it suits her. In fact the other day, she commiserated with me as I'm the one who has to leave for work at 7.30 in the morning whereas she can have a lie in and drop her children off at school. I'm sure there are far less attractive jobs around.

VS, it's called socialism, something which seems to be deeply unfashionable these days.

The Return of the Servant Class

Half the country are now employing people to undertake their domestic tasks. Luckily there's still another half from which to draw the workforce to do them. However it works out though you can be sure that men will make up a miniscule percentage of the people who clean the country's lavatories.

VS and InThe Gutter are describing an equitable fair relationship based upon need/

Need for home to be cleaned
Need to earn a wage

simple transaction

Nope it's based on inequality. People who have greater life choices and opportunities don't clean houses (it's why men generally leave it to women lest we forget what this thread was originally about). Anna's already said upthread that her cleaner ought to be grateful because there is a big pool of poor people she could choose from.

There are a whole lot of structural inequalities that need to be in place before cleaning up after other people becomes a viable way of earning a living.

why do you assume cleaning is a bad or unviavble way to earn a living?the major significant socio-demographic factor most likely to improve the social and health ourtcomes of individuals are working

instead of sneering at individual jobs, it would be better to be supportive of individual employment choices

I'm working class and employ a cleaner.. she's on roughly the same hourly rate as me if I broke down my income in that way although hers is probably worth more because I doubt she pays tax. Does that mean I'm exploiting her or am I also being exploited as my hourly income is the same as a menial, exploited downtrodden cleaner?

For what it's worth, my reasons for having her come are twofold;

1 - I seriously bloody hate cleaning and so does my dp

2 - I have some health problems which make some cleaning tasks almost impossible for me to do.

I would think tho that surely it comes down to personal choice as Anna and Xenia have said. You make certain lifestyle choices according to what's important to you. If you want to opt out of the rat race and have a lower income that's your choice and you take what comes with it, likewise if you choose the opposite. I'm sure if I really put my mind to it I could be very successful in a career (maybe not quite at Xenia's level) up until recently I've chosen to be at home with my children and I'm now studying and looking towards a career path.

From conversations I've had with my cleaners, it's a job that they feel suits them, they earn a pretty decent living and that's what they care about.

Sorry am rambling a bit so I'm going to bed, g'night

sorry just to ask Elizabetth, why is cleaning not a reasonable job to have? It can be very very lucrative, perhaps you ought to check it out before making such judgements and stereotyping cleaners

no offence intended