to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

But there are plenty of families where the mother is at home and doesn't get any time off and the man has time off at weekends. Women accept taht all over the place - all those men off playing golf or in the pub. I would suggest it is very rare housewives get as much time off at weekends or weekends away as men do. I would also suggest that's because they don't earn money and therefore in this capitalist society we live in they have less power to negotiate. Instead they are grateful to the man as provider and they realise they could never earn what he does - God knows why they can't are they less clever, less qualified? Or do women always seek men who are better and earn more? The marrying up thing?

Elasticwoman - I agree, looking after my child is not boring at all and I happily forfeit £££s an hour to do so - being with my child is worth much more to me that the £££s.

However, cleaning/ironing is really dull and I would much rather pay other people to do it.

Tidying I don't even think about - you have to tidy your own stuff whatever you do. In fact, my partner got back from work yesterday and told me he had spent the whole morning tidying his desk - and how, even though it was a pain, he was pleased with himself for doing so. He just can't outsource it to anyone (and he has a full-time secretary).

Cooking I enjoy, so wouldn't want to outsource anyway. Though it's nice to eat out a couple of times a week to get a break.

Even those of us who work full time and have a cleaner spend ages tidying up and doing chores. It's part of normal life and I love being with the children from an hour or two a day, adore it but no more than that. We virtually never eat out.

Why don't you eat out, Xenia?

It's not so much an English tradition I suppose as a French one. It's expensive. The portions (in the UK anyway) are often too big unless you're somewhere very smart). We did eat out in Val D'Isere over Christmas but holidays are different. Also the older 3 children are students so they come and go rather than like children under 16 who tend to be home.

Yes, I agree on the portion sizes and prices in the UK. It's much easier to pop out for a meal here in Paris and neither overeat nor overspend. Always find I overeat in Val d'Isère though - I find that mountain food is very hard to digest

xenia - you don't like spending more than an hour or two with your kids? honestly? what do u do at weekends?

I only ask as I am a full time working mum and i do the hour or two after school with them before bedtime, but weekends obvioulsy its all day for two days, no other choice but I do love it now they are older - just wondered what you do?

Elasticwoman - you are completely bonkers.

I kind of agree with Xenia, actually. If you hate housework that much, there must be something in your life you can give up to pay for a cleaner. £20 a week (or even every other week) for a couple of hours' cleaning is a few drinks in the pub or one or 2 cups of coffee a day. Of course, there will be some people who can't afford it whatever but in general, I think most people can stretch to pay for it if things are that bad.

madamez - on the "this is too trivial to discuss" male approach to housework.

I know where you are coming from, and I have some sympathy, but I also think that when one person in the household is the breadwinner, the other one has "management" responsibilities for organising the household and shouldn't bother the other half with trival detail. You work out what needs doing and you work out a plan for how it is going to be done, and then you run that plan by the other person. You don't bore their socks off by discussing the merits of different window cleaning companies over the dinner table.

i hate cleaning, i would love to have a cleaner - but my house is too untidy!! no, really - it gets me down, so i try and tackle it - there are other issues re storage etc which dont help, those are being adressed.

Does my DP expect me to do all the cleaning? No

Does he ever lift a finger to help? NO!!

Sounds like a right lazy chump doesnt he? but he isnt, he goes out to work, works hard - i work hard too, bringing up DD and doing an effort of keeping house clean, doing washing, cooking etc. He gets in at 5-7 every night. I dont expect him to start cooking and cleaning then. I wouldnt want it happening around me, so if it aint done, it aint done - end of story.

It is very easy to fall into a pattern though, he used to cook all the time, i just let him do it, lazy i guess. Now when he comes home, he takes over DD while i cook, its easier as she wants to spend time with daddy and i can get on. But over the xmas break, i ended up doing everything, just out of habit - we both commented on it. Its not about being unfair, its about habit.

I do think it is reasonable as a SAHM to do some housework, because to be fair, as working parents, it still has to be done, i certainly could never afford a cleaner when i was working so still had to do it all, although we did share it more. It is just more convinient that i do it so we have the weekends together.

That brings me on the the men who bugger off playing golf, off to the pub etc - that is totally out of order if the woman doesnt get the same amount of time to herself. I find it strange though, if you are a couple, surely you want to spend free time TOGETHER???

Hi - I am new to mumsnet and have been reading the above comments, this is a subject close to my heart as I am sure I have married the laziest man - we both work full time hours however as I finish earlier (start earlier) meaning I pick our DD up from the childminder and get an extra 2 hours with her which is when I play, feed and bath her. When hubby gets home he does milk and bed which takes about 30 minutes while i am cooking tea and tidying up. He then eats the food and sits on the lap-top for what is left of the evening. Its a struggle getting him to put the rubbish out let alone do the washing up and i feel a little hard done by especially as there is VERY little difference in the income we both bring in - in fact I am about £50 per month more! Where am i going wrong....!

lucy - I know what you mean about wanting to spend free time together and I am a bit sceptical about too much "division of labour" in a couple and too much individual time off - I could never be happy in a situation where each one of us went out on our own a couple of times a week and left the other to look after the children.

My partner plays tennis most Sunday mornings and that's fine - he's gone for 2-3 hours and comes back exceedingly cheerful and I get to chill out and read the newspapers and have a long lazy bath while the children do whatever they want to do. It's whatever works for you.

What about the women (and it usually is women) who've had very few educational and life opportunities to whom some of us middle-class women "outsource" our boring chores. They have to go home and do their own cleaning once they've done ours. It's often not a negative attitude holding them back, but the misfortune of having had home lives that few of us could even imagine. What about the political inequity of that?

Countingthegreyhairs - we are giving them jobs in our big houses. As long as we treat them with respect and pay them a decent wage, giving other people jobs within the remit of their skills and abilities is surely not a bad thing at all? Better than spending the money on frivolous things and those cleaners not having a job at all?

i haven't read the whole thread so apologies but dw and i have this conversation last night.

Men are now even more spoilt and pampered than ever before.

There might as well had not been any women's lib because women are expected more than ever in this day and age to be impecably groomed, skinny and ending up doing all the work.

In the meantime, men just get fatter, lazier and require more "me time".

Not only do we expect women to keep up their skinny, busy, perfectly groomed (white teeth and all!) appearance but we also expect them to hold down full time jobs, do pretty much all the work with the kids and pick up our shit.

I won't get into details of my dw's experiences of late but I think we're tumbling down a slippery slope.

on a tangent - I think the Xbox and wii thing is weird. I can't think why it's acceptable for a grown man with a family to spend all evening playing one.

daddycool, so what did you decide in the end, after your chat? are you a pampered dh?

like i said. spoiled little t**t. the grown man and video games thing gets up my arse.

oranges, have you tried a wii, they are fab and very addictive........

an EXCELLENT point countinghairs. My mother was always doing these menial jobs and then having to come home and do the house too. It is a matter of choice for many - but sadly a matter of necessity for many more. I dont even think it is a case of poor upbrining, as a poor working class family is an equally loving environment to raise children in than a well off "middle class" one. It is possible to change ones situation etc, but circumstances often dictate otherwise.

I am most certainly not "middle class", i am highly educated but have never earned very much money, due to personal circumstance. I didnt "marry up" either, we manage, we struggle actually as DP is starting a business, so hopefully one day we will do alright.

I do think it is easy to forget that it isn't always about choice

to a certain degree maybe but the discussion was more about her friends and the constant need for them to be perfectly groomed no matter the circumstance and them all stick thin and discussing how they need to lose even more weight.... all for their fat, useless husbands.

i'd like to think i'm not one of these guys but who knows.

I have tried wii - it was fab as a family, and with mates on a Friday night. But I would not want, or expect, dh to be playing it on his own every night.

I loved the bowling game!

have read op and skimmed up a bit but not to the top...

isn't this sometimes about control? many women want to complain that their men don't do anything, but actually don't want them to...

an example of this that hit me hard was when ds was born and I found it really really hard to let dh look after him, it was as if my control freakery meant that I didn't want him to do it and make the mistakes (that we all initially make) and learn from them.

luckily i gritted my teeth, he persisted and is a real co-parent, there are no areas that are mystically all mine and that only I know about.

anorak, I disagree that strong assertive people are pleasers vis your post of 14.15

women choose who they are with, unfortunately these choices are often informed by unconscious wish to copy, dangerously damaging models from their childhood and therefore agree that these aren't really 'choices' at all.

but there are reasons why these 'bullies' (and no doubt they exist, amongst women as well as men) get to stay with some women whilst others wouldn't give them the chance to exert their despicable natures.

... and unfortunately i can't go into too much detail as some may post on here and know who I am.

god the commas in my last post are heinous. forgive me syntax pedants.