To say the NHS should be privatised?

[Cheekypeach]

Preferably only partially, but still. I was talking about this with DH yesterday who is adamant it should stay as it is. I said I don’t think it can survive in its current form, and I for one would rather pay more and receive a better quality service. AIBU?

Anyone want to argue with that?

Why so combative @Cheekypeach ?

Also, I like the idea that the way to get people healthier in this country is to restrict their access to healthcare

I can never understand why these threads always jump directly to US healthcare as the only alternative. There are many models in other European counties that manage to provide comprehensive and affordable healthcare for their entire population. I've lived in quite a few of them- in general waiting times are a fraction of the equivalent in the NHS and there are no people dying as they can't afford insulin.

Have you seen what has happened to the parts of the prison system that have been privatised? It hasnt gone at all well.

I'm not opposed to reform but I'd be going in the opposite direction and removing PPPs getting services more joined up.

@Susu49

Anyone want to argue with that?

Why so combative @Cheekypeach ?

Also, I like the idea that the way to get people healthier in this country is to restrict their access to healthcare

Well making the healthcare free didn’t work did it?

Why is MN being targeted by these people?

@alpinia

I can never understand why these threads always jump directly to US healthcare as the only alternative. There are many models in other European counties that manage to provide comprehensive and affordable healthcare for their entire population. I've lived in quite a few of them- in general waiting times are a fraction of the equivalent in the NHS and there are no people dying as they can't afford insulin.

Because people know that the US system is the one we'd get with the current government.

Can anyone tell me how the votes are looking? I can never see them for some reason the bars are blank.

There is a difference between 'not fully free' and 'private', isn't there?

I'd support there being a few more additional charges for things like missed appointments as long as the money went back into the NHS, but I definitely wouldn't support private companies making profit from healthcare becoming the norm. I think its morally wrong and I dont see how we could get better value for money healthcare if shareholders are taking the cream off the top.

@agedmother

Why is MN being targeted by these people?

What? People with a different view to yours?

Well making the healthcare free didn’t work did it?

Healthcare isn't free. We all pay national insurance towards it.

@EveryAvenue agreed. I can't get private health insurance to cover my conditions for the same reason. And I'm a (largely) functioning member of society.

Additionally, it isn't simply about privatising the NHS to secure better funding. There needs to be major cultural shift to prevent qualified staff (eg doctors, nurses, midwives) leaving in droves.

From seeing how other areas of the NHS have fared when privatised, this doesn't improve workplace culture in the slightest!

We already lay for stiff, prescription( well in England anyway) dentists, even nhs ones, opticians so actually why shouldn’t we pay for other stuff, as long as it’s nhs prices and not bupa prices

Having a free at the time of service healthcare did work for many many years @Cheekypeach. However the government started putting people not fit to manage healthcare in the top seats, giving them less money and not caring where it went to.
If the higher ups actually gave a shit about patients, and put the money where it needed instead of where their friends are at, then it would work. It's not the nhs that's failing, it's the people who manage it and the government who fund it.
I agree it needs a reform, but that doesn't mean it needs privatising.

People are unhealthier, more obese and living longer than ever. There simply aren’t enough people contributing to the NHS and far more people taking out of it

Whilst i have completely disagreed with everything you have said so far, you've hit on something here...

a: Preventative healthcare, why is fatty sugary processed foods cheaper than healthier foods? why is leisure/exercise so expensive and really only available to those that can afford it?

b: increase the pool and amounts we get from taxation... why isn't investment income taxed at all (isa wrapped) and why is dividend income taxed at lower rates than say earned income? 7.5% for a basic tax payer (it is going up to 8.75%) upper rate 33% still way below the income rates.

NHS is in a mess because for years it has been underfunded by 1 or 2% each and every year, over the last 12, its been underfunded by 3% p.a. (Blair years accepted)
These add up to huge amounts the NHS has not got.

YABU however there needs to be a root & branch change to how it is run.

The amount of wasted money is eye watering

First hand accounts

£30k spent for a machine that can’t be sterilised (won’t fit) cannot be returned, wasted money

£10k charged for installing a kitchen no bigger than a cloakroom

£30 for a tub of coffee when you can buy the same thing for £5 at the local cash & carry

Contacts given to catering & cleaning for 15 years at massively inflated prices

Ok the examples I’ve given aren’t in the millions but it’s an example of how utterly fucking incompetent the “managers” are making these decisions

Having a healthcare system like America would be totally catastrophic

@alpinia

I can never understand why these threads always jump directly to US healthcare as the only alternative. There are many models in other European counties that manage to provide comprehensive and affordable healthcare for their entire population. I've lived in quite a few of them- in general waiting times are a fraction of the equivalent in the NHS and there are no people dying as they can't afford insulin.

It's always the case that these threads go like this. No one knows what kind of model could be used, but the current NHS model has to change.

What the NHS needs is more staff.

34,000 nursing vacancies

9,000 doctor vacancies

Service is so awful because staff are far too far over stretched (and care is not safe). As it gets worse for the ones that stay, they leave and the problem exacerbates. It's a downward spiral.

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/workforce/nhs-medical-staffing-data-analysis

@Cheekypeach but you assume that it is possible to get everyone in the country to standard of health. That just instead realistic!

Not because its fundamentally impressive but because it isn't down to nhs vs private healthcare. It's down to poverty, education, opportunity...Basically all the social problems that affect our society and which are being massively neglected by government, while they systematically undermine the infrastructure which improved these problems.

Privatising the NHS won't help. At all. In fact, the reason the NHS was held up as a successful social change is because it massively improved the general health across the population, because it provides free health care to all.

Well making the healthcare free didn’t work did it?
Yes and no.
More people living with serious chronic conditions who would have just died before. And more people cured/minimal discomfort because more minor conditions treated.

So many MN users seem utterly outraged that things cost money and we can’t run public services in a benevolent yet highly efficient way.

Same as others. I can’t get private health insurance to cover my pre existing conditions.

*fundamentally impossible (not impressive)

It is entirely down to the nhs that we have had such a successful vaccine roll out. I highly doubt the private company run by the torries mates would have delivered anything half as successful.

Why does everyone refer to America? What about all the other countries who operate a mix of state and private provision, mostly very successfully?

Yes, I never understand this. It's either the NHS or the American system. What about the French system for example, which has consistently better outcomes and shorter waits than the UK?

And it's just not as simple as NHS good, private bad. I've seen some services using private companies which offer a faster, more palatable service than the NHS. One example would be private labs offering STI tests by post. That's worked really well for many people - the interface is NHS so I doubt many people even realise it's a privately provided service.

Also pre covid, at our GP practice it was possible to choose where to have scans etc. Often the wait for using the private facilities was days rather than months. The experience was very different too (I say that as someone who has worked in the NHS for 30+ years).There is a place for the NHS buying straightforward services such as these.

I think the time has come for change.