To say the NHS should be privatised?

[Cheekypeach]

Preferably only partially, but still. I was talking about this with DH yesterday who is adamant it should stay as it is. I said I don’t think it can survive in its current form, and I for one would rather pay more and receive a better quality service. AIBU?

@CorrBlimeyGG

Staffing agencies who charge £000s for barely competent staff because some wards have to have certain staffing ratios and can't afford to close their A&Es or ship critically ill patients out to other hospitals

The outsourcing of equipment libraries, meaning trusts are paying through the nose for basic items and a fortune for anything over that

Providers of 'niche' items (pagers etc) who have the NHS over a barrel and charge hundreds per unit as there is literally no other 'game in town'.

Legacy maintenance and payment contracts from PFIs which are extortionate and financially crippling.

Every target announced by a government has to be monitored - there are whole admin industries dedicated to monitoring ICCU outcomes, A&E targets, staff turnover, clinical coding - many of whom are paid as much as medical staff and who outnumber CSWs and cleaners - all of these monitoring functions need managers, analysts and admin assistants.

Billions of £££ have been wasted on not fit for purpose patient management software, infrastructure and contractors to code and install it.

You name it - catering, security car parking, alarm systems, maintenance and occupational health - all these have been outsourced and are charging ££££s for the 'privilege' of providing limited services.

The training and retention of clinical staff needs to be addressed - the lack of bursaries, accommodation and support is frightening and leads to an appalling drop out rate.

Our HR functions are incompetent and inefficient and recruitment is so slow people give up even after being offered a position.

There is no one to look at efficiency, cut administrative or management dead wood and the whole service is suffering as a result.

A lot of admin and office staff are on permanent contracts, with medical staff on precarious secondments and temporary contracts.

@Kendodd

Anyway OP, please come back and tell us why you don't just go private for your day to day care yourself. Lots of posters have asked this.

If I’m honest, I’m considering it. The care my family receives at the moment is abysmal.

You know that fantastic experience you have when you need to claim on your insurance for a car repair or when you have a leak in the house? Where you have to spend hours emailing people and telephoning faceless bureaucrats who will look for absolutely any excuse not to pay out, make it difficult to claim and not get the job done properly? Do you really fancy going through that if you need treatment for cancer, your child has a disability or you have a life changing injury which needs urgent treatment?

Now I’ve answered a question, does anyone want to tell me why a French or Swiss style system wouldn’t be better..?

www.diabetes.org.uk/preventing-type-2-diabetes/diabetes-risk-factors

I hate the way type 2 is portrayed as only for the fat and lazy. That’s not true.

Hell no!

I know the government are desperate for us to believe that private is better but when those costs start racking up and your insurance turns things down or excludes things or worse still your health becomes about costs, can I afford my monthly medication bill then you’ll be crying for the nhs.

The NHS needs funding. All the money spent on cronies, ppe scandals, parties, whatever had actually been used to pump up the nhs rather letting it deflate slowly we’d be in a better position.

How many women have had an emergency caesarean for free? Millions in uk, now go and google the costs of the same in the US or the poorer countries. They are sometimes 10 x a years salary!! No we NEED the nhs.

I’m considering going private but don’t think I can afford it

I work for the nhs. A number of colleagues have gone private

I’ve answered you @Cheekypeach with specific examples from the Irish system.

Your tenner a pop is unworkable.

HNRTT but when you say privatised, perhaps clarity might be helpful about whether you mean private delivery (much of primary already is), corporatised (creating larger entities that can have external shareholders that receive dividends, able to pay NEDS and offer consultancy to politicians and make political donations and other 'improvements' on the current common GP delivery structures) or private funding (like the USA through employment, some form of insurance like much of the European continent or something different). Much to the disgust of politicians and many posters, independent research seems to show the NHS offers relatively high quality/cost effective provision, partly through the benefits of monopsony leverage of HCP wages. Performance could be improved but there isn't the political will. IMO, structural reform will achieve nothing though seems to be the goal of the current UK English administration.

@AchillesPoirot

I’ve answered you *@Cheekypeach* with specific examples from the Irish system.

Your tenner a pop is unworkable.

I didn’t mention the Irish system

I really think MN thinks social care, health and welfare should be a bottomless pit.

That sort of discourse only hold until you look at how much money has been spent on PPE that was never delivered, on tax reductions for bankers, on T&T that didn’t work, the night Gale hospital that could never have been staffed or the furlough that was given to anyone and everyine wo checks (and Sunak deciding he would try and recover the money).
Strangely enough when the government wants to, there’s a magic money tree. But only for the richest, not the plebb.

If anything what civic has shown us is that, when you want ot find the money, you can.
It just so happen that the givernemnet doesn’t. And has convinced nearly everyone it’s not possible to have decent healthcare EVEN THOUGH other countries manage to do so AND the money is there (see above).

Why on Earth would anyone fall for that Nowadays is a puzzle for me tbh.

@Kendodd

If much of the population is obese, or doesn't exercise, or drinks to excess, or smokes, or takes drugs

I wonder if these people actually safe the state money because they die sooner?

I don't think so, no.

Not even mostly @Cheekypeach. There are a myriad of factors - unless you’re going to down the route of deserving and undeserving diabetics?

The ones who caught COVID in a nightclub and developed diabetes as a result - they pay? The ones who caught glandular fever snogging at 17? They pay coz who needs to snog. But the good ones who caught a cold age 5? We will fund?

It's all fine and dandy you being able to afford to pay more. Unfortunately not everyone is rolling in the dough. Those extra pounds a month could mean a lot to some people

Privatisation will mean services will cost more. It means money going to shareholders and money for another layer of bureaucracy.

Look at what happened in Nottingham. A national excellent eye care service was privatised. It went from being a centre of excellence, to barely able to carry out routine treatment.
I would have thought after the privatisation of various services we would have realised that privatisation is not a magic wand.

Some people want the NHS to be privatised because they will make a lot of money from it.

So, what, the Irish system is irrelevant because it disproves your theory?

@TravellingFrom

I really think MN thinks social care, health and welfare should be a bottomless pit.

That sort of discourse only hold until you look at how much money has been spent on PPE that was never delivered, on tax reductions for bankers, on T&T that didn’t work, the night Gale hospital that could never have been staffed or the furlough that was given to anyone and everyine wo checks (and Sunak deciding he would try and recover the money).
Strangely enough when the government wants to, there’s a magic money tree. But only for the richest, not the plebb.

If anything what civic has shown us is that, when you want ot find the money, you can.
It just so happen that the givernemnet doesn’t. And has convinced nearly everyone it’s not possible to have decent healthcare EVEN THOUGH other countries manage to do so AND the money is there (see above).

Why on Earth would anyone fall for that Nowadays is a puzzle for me tbh.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I think the tories are evil wankers & everything you say is true.

I don't get why so many posters immediately jump to the American model as the alternative? Just look at some of our closest neighbours for examples, such as the models in France and Germany that could be viable alternatives. The problem is (and this thread is a classic example) that you can't have a sensible conversation about it without people screaming "but look at America!" There are countless other examples that are a world away from the American system that we could look to.

You asked for an alternative model @Cheekypeach. I gave examples of one

You’d have Buckley’s of insurance there by the way.

A privatised system is so unfair and against the whole ethos of a national health service. My DC have both been born with allergies which they ar unlikely to grow out of. So I guess their premiums will be much higher than others.

And people saying that we could have a French system not the US one are dreaming. Just look at the current energy prices. The French are making the energy companies swallow the increase, whereas in the UK the Tories have chosen to pass that onto the consumers. I doubt they'll do anything different with a privatised healthcare system.

@Susu49

So, what, the Irish system is irrelevant because it disproves your theory?

I think so.

For all its faults we are so lucky to have the NHS. In America, so many people are stuck in corporate jobs just to maintain their health insurance, and are miserable. I do think we need to have strict rules on who can access our system for free, fines for missed appointments and a modernisation of the organisation. Surely it can adopt emails to communicate rather than endless letters the way it does now. Using Zoom effectively could really improve the service. A huge amount of cost and admin now goes into protecting the NHS from lawsuits and documenting everything that happens, if the NHS could be given a level of indemnity against claims that would save a fortune.

A&e is €100 a pop. A night in hospital is €80

www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/acute-hospitals-division/patient-care/hospital-charges/

If I’m honest, I’m considering it. The care my family receives at the moment is abysmal

Have you priced it up? I've included a link to costs below.
If I were you I would go for pay as you go rather than insurance. I have private health insurance through work and tbh its shit. It's so bureaucratic with loads of hoops to jump through to get treatment.

Just pay for a private gp and diabetics treatments, then you don't have to worry about the NHS and you have your wished for private healthcare.

www.diabetes.co.uk/private-healthcare/cost-of-private-healthcare-with-diabetes.html